The theme song to Sonic Forces Hoobastanks...

[Shun-Di]

Don't even get me started on the Sonic Heroes theme song.  That was the beginning of the end for Sonic being taken seriously at all, Shadow and 06 more or less finished him off.  Then Modern Sonic tried to bring him back from the dead and failed.  He was a mindless zombie by then.  Mania is like Sonic from an alternate universe where Sonic didn't go off the deep end.

[Shun-Di]

I hate how people complained about the comics forcing them to take anything considered emotional or dramatic too.  not to mention the whiney little Amy fans who ruined Sonic's relationship with Sally.  The comics gave older fans what they wanted, there was no reason to strip all that away because it didn't follow the childish cannon of the modern games.  Also the Sonic X fans assumed Sonic should be childish as they replaced the older fans allowing Sega to make Sonic more and more childish without question or criticism.  Anytime someone did criticize it, they would just say, "Sonic is for children, it isn't meant to be edgy.  lolz Shadow The hedgehog and Sonic 06"

[Shun-Di]

AND IZUKA HAS NO CLUE HOW SONIC IS APPEALING TO THE WEST.  HE FUCKED IT ALL UP AND IT DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT APPEALING TO JAPAN!   HE IS THE MOST IGNORANT PERSON AT SEGA AND NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO QUESTION HIM.  GAMES ARE POORLY WRITTEN AND SHOVED OUT THE DOOR UNFINISHED.  IF IT WASN'T FOR FAN GAME MAKERS, THE REAL FANS WHO REMEMBER WHEN SONIC WAS COOL, SONIC WOULD BE DEAD.

[Shun-Di]

Pontac and Graf are bad writers too.  I'm sick of bad jokes being excused because "it's for kids"  Kids are not that damn stupid, autistic or not!  I'm so damn sick of it.  I put up with this year after year, game after game, fanboy after fanboy.    IF SEGA DOESN'T FIX MODERN SONIC, I'M QUITTING THE SERIES.  FORCES ALREADY LOOKS SHITTY.  FUCK IZUKA. 

[Shun-Di]

Any time a "fan" says that Sonic should be childish (even the music... grrrr) they completely overlook all the cool Sonic games and Sonic music.  Like George and Barry said, get some other genres of music in there.  The fake guitar rock music sucks.  Bad enough Sonic Colors had whiteboy autotune and Sonic Heroes makes my ears bleed.

[Shun-Di]

Remember Sonic Adventure 1 and 2?  Sonic 1?  Sonic 2?  Sonic 3 and Knuckles?  Sonic CD?  Sonic 3D Blast? (say what you will about older games that are considered bad, they had good music).

Sonic 4 had bad music and bad gameplay.  Both episodes were lame.  I hate the fact it's called Sonic 4.  It's why I thank god every day Sonic Mania exists just to bleach that shitty game from our minds and regain Sonic's old respect and cool factor.  Excellent music to boot.

[Centrale]

It's okay, man. It's really not that big of a deal. Sonic is just supposed to be a fun video game. If you aren't liking it anymore you can let it go.

[Shun-Di]

It's okay, man. It's really not that big of a deal. Sonic is just supposed to be a fun video game. If you aren't liking it anymore you can let it go.

This isn't ok though.  This casual mindset and low standards for Sonic from fans who aren't even old enough to remember when Sonic was actually cool...  It's gone on for so long.  If Sega is going to make a new image for themselves, they've gotta go all the way, Sonic and non Sonic games need to be high standard quality, and that goes beyond just pretty graphics on modern consoles.  Pretty graphics will not save a bad game.  It may fool some idiots, but real gamers will complain about the things that are wrong with it.  The problem is Modern Sonic has a very rabbid fanbase, worse than MLP or SU.  (In most cases, the same fans)  I want Sega to return to making good games and good sequels.  Sonic should not be the exception, especially since he is the mascot of the fucking company.  It really shows their priorities or lack there of.

[Centrale]

Maybe so, but with all due respect, Sega can't afford to listen to fans like yourself. You just posted an entire page of incomprehensible ranting. And there are thousands more like you, all with opposing viewpoints yet at the same time all convinced that they're the ones who are right. The smartest thing Sega can do is ignore that kind of rabid "fandom" (if it can even be called that anymore) and just forge ahead with their own vision. Which in reality is what they seem to be doing. They chose an intelligent route with the custom character option in Sonic Forces, as that taps into a healthy, fun and often funny part of the fan community. But the angry-man-who-has-outgrown-Sonic demographic should rightfully just be ignored.

[Shun-Di]

Maybe so, but with all due respect, Sega can't afford to listen to fans like yourself. You just posted an entire page of incomprehensible ranting. And there are thousands more like you, all with opposing viewpoints yet at the same time all convinced that they're the ones who are right. The smartest thing Sega can do is ignore that kind of rabid "fandom" (if it can even be called that anymore) and just forge ahead with their own vision. Which in reality is what they seem to be doing. They chose an intelligent route with the custom character option in Sonic Forces, as that taps into a healthy, fun and often funny part of the fan community. But the angry-man-who-has-outgrown-Sonic demographic should rightfully just be ignored.

Sega has bred casuals who just shut their brains off. 

[OriginalName]

Nah man, Centrale's got a good point. I don't know if it's fair to characterize dissenters as just being in denial about having outgrown the series either, but I think you guys are hitting on an important question for video game fans...

Is it better to actively complain about a series going in a direction that you disagree with, or should you "check your privilege" to borrow a phrase and let the creators take the path they choose. Sonic has reached a point where the fanbase has become so fragmented that the team can ignore a segment and still have a fanbase left over.

For reasons that escape me and Shun-Di as well, this series continues to sell and, if you look at the Sonic Forces media out there it seems to be getting good response. To me, when I see the media surrounding this game, it seems like the confirmation of every joke any detractor ever sneered about the franchise as I waited for the developers to prove them wrong. I'll be honest, I'm one of the people who gave up on the series all the way back at Sonic Adventure 2. I honestly didn't like that game despite some of its strengths (which came as a shock since I'd LOVED the series up to that point), and I was only 11, so I can't say that I'd outgrown it. From there I waited for a game to appeal to me, and that honestly didn't happen until Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, and Sonic Lost World (an awkward game, but I appreciated it). Prior to that, the games didn't look good to me and their scores agreed.

I'm excited about Sonic Mania, but a new Sonic game doesn't HAVE to be a Genesis throwback. I guess I'm just jealous of Nintendo fans in a way... Metroid, F-Zero, and Kid Icarus fans notwithstanding. When changes are made to the Mario and Zelda formula, they're logical and in keeping with the identities of those series. Now, I don't expect Sega to be like that with every series they've made -- they were always these awesome pop-culture junkie punks who churned out ideas as fast as they could, and I loved them for that. But Sonic (alongside maybe Phantasy Star, Virtua Fighter, NiGHTS, and Sakura Taisen over in Japan) is a series that deserves that Mario/Zelda kind of treatment.

How often have Mario/Zelda fans looked at the next installment and asked "what am I even looking at?" Once a piece during the GameCube years? How many of those fans "outgrew" the games?

Outgrowing or changing times get cited a lot when it comes to Sonic, but I honestly think that the character at its inception was as timeless as Mickey Mouse, Hello Kitty, Superman... whether the score of Sonic Forces is 5/10 or 8.5/10, nothing about it seems "timeless" to me. The best explanation I could come up with is that no one who was present at the character's inception is involved anymore.

Now, are my expectations too high? Sure! But the people who conceived the franchise did exactly the same thing, and that's what lead to some of the best games of all time; games that really have not aged.

I don't know -- you're absolutely right, ranting and raving doesn't help a thing, but at the same time, I do disagree with the notion that I've "outgrown" Sonic. I've recently played some childish games like Super Mario Galaxy, PaRappa the Rapper, Napple Tale, and We Love Katamari for the first time, and went "yeah, these is timeless. What a great game." I'd like to be able to say the same for Sonic, and I happen to think that the answers to getting back to that point lie in its roots, but honestly, (I swear I'm not saying this to be snotty) what the hell do I know?

[crackdude]

I agree and disagree with all of you. Guess that makes us all individuals with an opinion.

I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with modern Sonic gameplay, so whether we like the games or not comes down to our own expectations and preferences.
It's OK that a game isn't to your taste. That doesn't make it bad.
And if the games are selling a lot, it means at least a large group of people enjoy the prospects of playing them.

In 50 years time will any of this matter? no.
As long as people enjoy the franchise, there is no reason for the creator to follow anything but whatever they want, and direct it toward whomever they want. It's their game, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Complaining only makes you look dumb.

[OriginalName]

Respectfully, I think it's okay to criticize something in an online forum as long as you keep yourself in check. It's a Sega forum, y'know? I feel like expressing your feelings about a Sega franchise is acceptable so long as you don't lose your mind over it.

But yeah, I've spoken with my dollars for many years. I guess the only reason why it seems somewhat validated to complain is because for a couple of years there it did seem like the creators started listening, and made better-received games for it.

But you're right: if their hearts aren't in it, then I and people like me go back to not buying it. Simple as.

[crackdude]

It's okay to criticize, but when things aren't good.

If people just want to "scream" because whatever feature they feel is completely necessary is missing, or because a certain decision isn't exactly as they visioned it, without constructive criticism... well don't lol

[Tad]

Criticism is fine providing it's based off solid foundations that warrant it. My assessment of Sonic Forces is purely based on what we've seen so far (as I said in my last post) and should be taken as such till the game is out. Although I am looking forward to playing it, I do have what I consider fair concerns of Sonic Team making the same mistake as we've seen before, but we'll have to wait and see.

There's definitely more interest in Mania at the moment, but that might just be due nostalgia and a set release date.