Sonic Team's Takashi Iizuka on how Sega is changing its game

[Ben]

Vanquish is the type of game that should have been HUGE. It's basically Gears of War but with fast-paced gameplay and power slides. Americans love Gears of War, the game should have been given a huge ad campaign and it could have sold millions.

Sega treated it as if it were some niche title and hardly marketed it. Decisions like that boggle the mind. Sega can't just live off of Sonic, they need to build other big names. They won't do that by refusing to market anything that doesn't have "Sonic" in it.

[Sharky]

TA, While I do miss those days, and games. They were released in about a 3 year time span.

In the past 3 Years I'd say Sega have released some pretty damn awesome games recently too. Maybe not quite on that level but they don't have a console anymore... Where they are currently is not at all bad in my opinion and they are profitable!

[Team Andromeda]

TA, While I do miss those days, and games. They were released in about a 3 year time span.

In the past 3 Years I'd say Sega have released some pretty damn awesome games recently too. Maybe not quite on that level but they don't have a console anymore... Where they are currently is not at all bad in my opinion and they are profitable!

No really Sharky most came of those games came out in 2001 and 2002 . You compare SEGA Japan 5 years output from 1998 to 2003, to its 5 year output since the start of this generation and there's simply been a dramatic decline in Quailty of constant good games coming out and SEGA has really lost its tech EDGE .

I'm not SEGA bashing here for the sake of it , they're had a good years and games like VT III, VF 5 , Val, Yakuza II Sonic Colours were/are brilliant , But compared to what SEGA outputed in the DC and X-Box days its doesn't really compare (especially on a tech Levels ) more so on the Internet/On-Line sides of things (where SEGA were almost Pioneers, with luck PSO II will fix this) And you really need to stop counting Bay or Van as SEGA games like them made them, SEGA only published them.

SEGA Japan needs to up its tech and work Load for This and the current Generation, in order to push forward and grow (for the PC and Handhelds SEGA has been great, the issue is 360 and PS3 SEGA Japan support ) And it would be nice so at least one risky or Arty game too, something like this

[youtube:1ckor7ah]TqpHp55032E[/youtube:1ckor7ah]


SEGA should be making REZ II and Panzer Dragoon for the 360/PS3 Natal/Move , not leaving it up to Q? and Land Ho. Nobody makes a better 3D shooter than SEGA Japan and I mean Nobody

[SOUP]

But Q? essentially made Rez in the first place.....

[Sharky]

I'll happily agree that Sega Japan are not doing as well as they were in the DC era but simply put I don't think ANY company has or will match Segas output of unique and awesome games in that 4/5 year span.

Sega weren't pumping out classics in the 50 odd years before that era and probably wont again... It was imo the golden age of the company and gaming in general.

But I'm not going to hold up my hands and say Sega aren't a great company anymore just because they aren't pumping out games like they were then.

While I will agree 2004/2008 was a pretty damn low point for Sega and they were releasing some pretty mediocre crap... The past 3 years have ONLY got better with 2010 probably being their best year since 2002 and 2011 looks quite brilliant too.

[Team Andromeda]

But Q? essentially made Rez in the first place.....

SEGA made REZ, ok some of the staff are now in Q?, but that doesn't mean SEGA can't or shouldn't make a REZ II. It can also work both ways Ridge racer staff left Namco to make Sega Rally, but Namco still made plenty of decent RR games.

I'll happily agree that Sega Japan are not doing as well as they were in the DC era but simply put I don't think ANY company has or will match Segas output of unique and awesome games in that 4/5 year span

Yes in the 32bit and DC era SEGA Japan  just pummed out the classics . That is not so much my issue (though they do need to up production)  I more uspet  with the lack of leading edge tech and games with vision or a real sense of SEGA style and Art  . Even on non SEGA consoles SEGA Japan  were able to lead and push the X-Box with Orta, JSRF, HOTD III (the GFX were brilliant)  F-zero II and Monkey Ball II on the Cube (which I think features brilliant GFX) and VF 4 Evo, Yakuza II  on the junk that was the PS2.

So far 5 years in we had just Val on the PS3 and Sonic Hedgehog Unleashed that really pushed the Tech book out , and only Val for a game with the old SEGA magic for Art and pushing a new look or style of graphics. Is that really good enough for a company like SEGA. I know Yakuza III looks good and the cut scenes are truly amazing , in game the GFX and Animation are far from leading (and please do not confuse that with me saying the gameplay is bad)  

But I'm not going to hold up my hands and say Sega aren't a great company anymore just because they aren't pumping out games like they were then.

I'm not saying SEGA Japan are bad or aren't making good games , but compared to what they used to pump out, or  to what rival 3rd parties are putting out (like EA and Ubi) they've been left behind on the GFX, AAA games and more shockingly the On-Line side of things . That to me is a bit of an insult to the legacy the late great Isao Okawa did for SEGA

SEGA can do some steps to correct that like a Multi Platform amazing  looking PSO II (lets hope) Making Sonic Colours Multi (to go along with the New SONIC game) and updating some classic IP like SOA with Canvas tech. more of their games multi platform ECT

[ROJM]

Japanese game studios have been taken Western idea's and adding their own spin since the birth of Video games, even RPG and Traditional Shooters owe their origins to America

No shit,sherlock. But ignore the rest of my post to make yourself even more stupid.
And here's a little tip. Japanese games have evolved since then that they're not doing that anymore and western games are back to where they were during that period. Hence the reason why SS said what he said in the first place. :roll:
But feel free to ignore other people's posts and what  they say and give everyone a history lesson in an attempt to fascinate half the docile sonic fans in this forum that don't know any better.

SS was talking about the experience not the genre

Well the experience is very much new~ish, These sorts of games have only been possible since the X-Box/PS2 days, where consoles could handle and draw the action the developer wanted to through at it. Though almost every genre has been done and covered now, there is really nothing much that is really new and unique in terms of new gameplay experience

No the gameplay experience is a throwback to action/arcade games of the past.

No, I simply saying SEGA spread its self too thin, spend too much money pushing and developing for multiple platforms in 1994/5 and lost direction and focus as result . SEGA bleed money and support.

But wait that's what you want this version of Sega to do with this generation of machines, what a hyporcrite. :roll:

[ROJM]

I'll happily agree that Sega Japan are not doing as well as they were in the DC era but simply put I don't think ANY company has or will match Segas output of unique and awesome games in that 4/5 year span.

Sega weren't pumping out classics in the 50 odd years before that era and probably wont again... It was imo the golden age of the company and gaming in general.

But I'm not going to hold up my hands and say Sega aren't a great company anymore just because they aren't pumping out games like they were then.

While I will agree 2004/2008 was a pretty damn low point for Sega and they were releasing some pretty mediocre crap... The past 3 years have ONLY got better with 2010 probably being their best year since 2002 and 2011 looks quite brilliant too.

Better but not good enough, i tell you why i reckon that is in a moment....

Vanquish is the type of game that should have been HUGE. It's basically Gears of War but with fast-paced gameplay and power slides. Americans love Gears of War, the game should have been given a huge ad campaign and it could have sold millions.

Sega treated it as if it were some niche title and hardly marketed it. Decisions like that boggle the mind. Sega can't just live off of Sonic, they need to build other big names. They won't do that by refusing to market anything that doesn't have "Sonic" in it.

Exactly but i think it goes deeper than that.

This reply was originally to TA but work got in the way its more suited here and its been extended.

IP that everyone knows after years of being exclusive and with that building a loyal fanbase. Different scenario,

So those corps have a bigger following and fanbase to that of SEGA ?. What about the likes of 2K games ?

Well what do you think? None of Sega big games actually storm the top ten let alone get to number 1. Do you actually read back what you say before making another post. you didn't disagree with me about sega's small support base. and now you're saying they have more fans than the corps i mentioned.

here's the harsh truth. A capcom diehard fan would almost buy every capcom game. The average capcom fan would almost buy two or three capcom games.

Now technically you are correct all together the userbase of sega customers are bigger.

But they aren't fans of sega, they just happen to like games that sega happens to publish.
That's the difference.
Apart from most people here who would buy two or three sega games when they can outside of their fave sega series, or collect most of the titles, the average consumer that buys sega products these days only buy them for a particular game.

SONIC
TOTAL WAR
YAKUZA
FOOTBALL MANAGER
MUSHI KING
SAKURA TAISEN
plus a whole lot more


None of those corps ever had the failure of two systems either and that definatly impacted on the sega fanbase where they, we are now.
Sega isn't a unified brand anymore. Does having exclusives help matters, no but being Mp wouldn't either. Sega has become a company that happens to have a lot of IP but because of a lack of system where the consumer who brought into the system are exposed to other sega titles a lot more they would go looking elsewhere.
No SOA2 or any diehard sega game is going to sort that out until Sega sorts out its brand. What does SEGA even stand for anymore?
What does the name SEGA mean to you or any other gamer?
They need to rebrand themselves and unify their IP under a collective banner like they did before.

In the UK during the late eighties where the spectrum reigned king Sega managed to at least become either the second most succesful console in that country(or the third) why was that? They manage to convince many gamers that the closest thing to the arcade experience was with the master system. it didn't hurt that they had a good reputation being an arcade game producer with the kids but combined with certain games that were making a splash like Taito's Operation wolf at that period,the MS started to be the second system people in the Uk had owned.

The reason why many americans know the name Sega was that they rebranded themselves at the dawn of the Genesis system. They had a direction, they had a plan and how to sell it. The games backed up that and they became the numer one games company during the nineties in the states.

In japan Sega rebranded themselves just in time for the launch of the saturn. piror to this Sega's state of affairs on the console front wasn't that disimilar to what's happening now. they had a good userbase of sega supporters but weren't attacting enough of the other gamers to be truly considered succesful.
Sega japan rebranded themselves and they based it around another strong asset with VIRTUA FIGHTER. It worked at least for a while in japan. And other titles that came in after that helped them out a bit in their battle with sony.

I didn't include the DC for several reasons. There's evidence to support that Sega's tactic with the DC at least in america was starting to work, but by the time the userbase in  the states caught on it was far too late. But clearly the DC era of Sega also had a type of image that won't be forgotten by a lot of gamers.

Today's Sega has a severe lack of image. Their marketing is pathectic, their direction is all over the place, they refuse or most likely do not know how to use their assets properly. Just the one that sells and in truth that has nothing to do with sega. At the moment they are just a name on a box, they don't mean anything, they don't seem to stand for anything.

How does one company seemingly have one of the best line ups from any third party, a good blend of eastern game design and western game design on a multitude of systems, from i may add the hottest game creators from both sides of the atlantic, only to see the titles apart from sonic crash and burn?

Is it incompetence? Lack of funds or what? because what i 've justr described has been Sega's release list for the past three years. BAYONETTA did not perform as well in the west as it should have done,MADWORLD well we all know the story on that, ALPHA PROTOCOL and countless othersthat make me wonder if it was EA, or some other third party publishing these titles would they have done better?
This is where Sega needs to focus their rebranding. Their last few line ups remind me of when Sega was at the top of their game during the genesis era. You had great second party sega games. you had great western party Sega games and the back bone was the SOJ consumer and arcade sega games.

Two out of three isn't bad. What's bad is that because of a lack of SOJ ports and hell even SOJ consumer games, even sonic isn't inhouse as much anymore it appears that Sega is a good publisher of other peoples games and other peoples styles but what made them famous is lacking and in some cases MIA or consumer indifference(YAKUZA)

Another factor is the severe lack of arcade ports. Historically you can trace Sega's success on their new ventures with the supply of arcade ports from the beginning.

Two, stop marketing to the converted. MW didn't bomb because the game was too short. The game bombed because it like HOTDOK and several others it was marketed to the converted. I'm not against internet marketing, but if that's ALL your going to do and just advertise to people who already know and going to buy the game then what's the point? The old sega use to market outside of the spectrum as well as within it and both were eye catching because they were different to their peers. in today's world of bland game marketing, its hardly diffulcult to comeup with something that will stand out from the competition and use that to define your brand.

It's Thinking, Genesis Does, Welcome to the Next level, Segata Shinsiro, there's a reason why these slogans are still remembered today. There's a reason why Genesis game collections sold as well as it did too. And there's a reason why Sega should be performing better. because as these past fiscal reports have proven at least in the west, you can have the best lineups out there but without selling and telling the greater public on who you are and what you stand for effectivly, its won't ammount to a tin of beans.

But since becoming a third party they haven't really done that.

The brand was to get the attention but the games was what backed it up and usually the arcade games were the perfect one to do that. A lot of people are hollering about BORDERBREAK being a port, initially i was against it but i can see why it could work if the consoles could mimic the network battle and sega could tap into the social element and sell it like that to the general market, who knows.

No golden goose in SHENMUE 3 or SKies 2 will save sega. They need to rebuild their brand, effectivly use the assets that they've got, arcade ports mixed with a new soj title and the other type of titles that defined their release schedule in the last few years, market them better make the moolah and reconnect and rebuild the Sega fanbase and then the high risque titles should come. Not before when we all know sega just isn't in a condition or the support is there to buy them in their droves.

They haven't rebranded themselves for this current generation. They're haven't maintained the ports. just a name on a box to most gamers.

[Sega Uranus]

It has more to do than all of this. SEGA is third party now, meaning their fanbase is spread all over the consoles and they essentially have to make most titles multiple times just to please them. Regardless of that most "Bigger" games now need a much, much higher budget than ever before.

SEGA is releasing a lot of shit, yeah. Stuff like their poorly constructed ports, bad PR and Sonic the Hedgehog 4 are some of the worst things they have done in a long time, but they are not purposely trying to be terrible or anything like that. Just because a lot of their titles do not impress "Gamers" who do not even buy the games they talk about means nothing, otherwise Namco would not be in the red for like six years now.

[Team Andromeda]

Japanese games have evolved since then that they're not doing that anymore and western games are back to where they were during that period. Hence the reason why SS said what he said in the first place

Both the West and East are doing it more than ever. There is nothing really new gamewise (that hasn't be seen or done before).

No the gameplay experience is a throwback to action/arcade games of the past.

And this game was . Throw backs to the past would be 2D or very basic 2D sprite scaling to given the impression of depth . 3rd Person action game like that of GOW are pretty new if only because the hardware now allows to type of games.

But wait that's what you want this version of Sega to do with this generation of machine

Is SEGA in the Home console  game anymore ?: That is what a I mean buy spreading your self too thinly. You couldn't share Mega Drive code with Saturn code (much less gameplay), 32X Code with Mega Drive , All games had to be developed for the platform in question and each marketed separately (because the games, even of they shared the name would play and look so different) and more the consoles built and marketed (that is why SEGA pulled out) .

Now porting a 360 to PS3 is much more more easier and cost effects , because the game will be exactly the same (practically all area's) and its just a case of making the code work on the console on the PS3 or 360 just like with VF5 or Virtual Tennis , and you just say available on both the 360 and PS3 (much easier and cost effective to Market on TV/Press )

you didn't disagree with me about sega's small support base. and now you're saying they have more fans than the corps i mentioned.

I tire of this, you're the one that keeps saying SEGA is bigger than this or that Corp, I beg to differ.

Ubisoft needed to re-band and expand and it did just that with a 5 year plan (which started in 2001) and getting some top IP buying some Studios and going Multi Platform in a Big way, and moving developer focus outside of its base in Paris). Its now paid off and Ubi have transformed them self's from a company just known of Rayman in 1990's . 2K games have been in the game for less than SEAA and like SEGA they've had all sorts of In-House issues and massive losses., They've now turned it all around and why ?, Big Games and all of them Multi Platform and made with the west in Mind, Plus  a next Gen Multi Platform engine that has been improved and improved with each new game  (like Ubi)

It's not hard , more so giving the ever declining Market in Japan. SEGA Japan need to learn the lessons from the like of Ubi, Make more games for the west and start to get Multi Platform Multi Purpose engine to be shared between the teams, and just start to make a game that will also please the faithful and update a classic IP that does justice to the series like how OutRun II did for OutRun in The Arcades.

Is it incompetence? Lack of funds or what? because what i 've justr described has been Sega's release list for the past three years. BAYONETTA did not perform as well in the west as it should have done,MADWORLD well we all know the story on that, ALPHA PROTOCOL and countless othersthat make me wonder if it was EA, or some other third party publishing these titles would they have done better?

Its a bit of both. I do get the issue with Bayonetta is sold over a million and for any new IP that's a great start, more so given the timing of the games window. Alpha well there'a great game in there, it just full of bugs and looks like shit (that killed it chances for me) and a game like Madworld was just doomed to fail on the Wii, I think most people could see that 1 coming.

In those cases I don't think EA could have done much better, and it took them a while to established Bad Company or Dead Space . Sometimes a developer needs to take a chance with new IP and make a sequel , I just wished SEGA did that with Val on the PS3 and stuck with the PS3/360 for a sequel.

Also like EA did in a past , SEGA have a bad and quite unfair Rep of destroying classic Teams and IP  even with its own fans now, not helped with average updates to Sonic or NiGHTS, Monkey ball (but people overlook updates to VF and VT ECT).  SEGA Japan needs to update a classic IP for the Next Gen, just to show the fans the Teams and SEGA can do it and create good will and make it MultiPlatform (stop hurting your own fans Not everyone has both a 360 or PS3) Like how EA took the likes of Need For Speed back to the drawing board, EA is even making a sequel to Mirror's Edge , that shows some balls

SEGA Europe are in very decent shape I just despair at SEGA America and Japan sometimes

[ROJM]

No the gameplay experience is a throwback to action/arcade games of the past.

And this game was . Throw backs to the past would be 2D or very basic 2D sprite scaling to given the impression of depth . 3rd Person action game like that of GOW are pretty new if only because the hardware now allows to type of games.

Stop spinning. You got caught out. Face up to it and move on. No one with SS's experience is going to say that and meant he was talking about 2d stuff. Only a novice is going to think that. Throw backs in these type of disscussions when talking about current games has ALWAYS meant the gameplay experience being a throwback and usually meaning an enjoyable one. Only you would ever think that it was n't. Like i said carry one trying to explain that it wasn't and that it means 2d and all that jazz, it makes you look more stupid.

But wait that's what you want this version of Sega to do with this generation of machine

I

s SEGA in the Home console  game anymore ?: That is what a I mean buy spreading your self too thinly. You couldn't share Mega Drive code with Saturn code

Because the MD was dead by the time the Saturn arrived :roll: Your argument is pointless because if sega had to create a lot of games and go MP as your advocating than they are spreading themselves too thinly in a shruken marketplace.

(much less gameplay), 32X Code with Mega Drive , All games had to be developed for the platform in question and each marketed separately (because the games, even of they shared the name would play and look so different) and more the consoles built and marketed (that is why SEGA pulled out) .

Well they couldn't make the exact game could they with all that different power, and you're acting like these systems were all out at the same time when they weren't.

you didn't disagree with me about sega's small support base. and now you're saying they have more fans than the corps i mentioned.

I tire of this, you're the one that keeps saying SEGA is bigger than this or that Corp, I beg to differ.

Yawn, a merger with a big japanese company made them a bigger corp, that doesn't mean they have a bigger fanbase, support base maybe but not a big fan fanbase. two different things. No one should confuse being a big corp meaning automatically they have a large fan base when that company could be big for all sorts of reasons.

Ubisoft needed to re-band and expand and it did just that with a 5 year plan (which started in 2001) and getting some top IP buying some Studios and going Multi Platform in a Big way, and moving developer focus outside of its base in Paris). Its now paid off and Ubi have transformed them self's from a company just known of Rayman in 1990's . 2K games have been in the game for less than SEAA and like SEGA they've had all sorts of In-House issues and massive losses., They've now turned it all around and why ?, Big Games and all of them Multi Platform and made with the west in Mind, Plus  a next Gen Multi Platform engine that has been improved and improved with each new game  (like Ubi)

2k games doesn't sell well in the east. neither does Ubisoft. its easy to promote two companies whose base is in the west. But how about a company whose has to appeal to both markets hmm?. I am sick and tired and annoyed with you using smaller, crappier and downright shite companies and comparing them to Sega's situation. They are NOT in the same situation and never will be.

Both the West and East are doing it more than ever. There is nothing really new gamewise (that hasn't be seen or done before).

Nope only recently have they started to do that. again since 2002 both markets have been focused on titles that typify each markets particular tastes. The only titles exempt from this are the games that had a big name prior to that divide. HALO never sold big in the east but neither has YAKUZA sold well in the west. Yet Sonic, Devil May Cry and Metal Gear can sell well in all markets because they are estabilshed. New ips in the last several years have not sold as they should. This is one of the points you keep ignoring.


 

It's not hard , more so giving the ever declining Market in Japan. SEGA Japan need to learn the lessons from the like of Ubi, Make more games for the west and start to get Multi Platform Multi Purpose engine to be shared between the teams, and just start to make a game that will also please the faithful and update a classic IP that does justice to the series like how OutRun II did for OutRun in The Arcades.

That depends on what you wish for. OUTRUN 2 isn't a bad game but it was for arcades a market that has shrunked in the west at least. But then you also get what happened to SHINING. I want Sega to update games when they want to not because they have to but prehaps in that you are correct that times have changed. Sega to me always gives you the game you need rather than the game you want which is why people don't understand why many games don't get updated, but you ask half those people did they really notice when they couldn't get their SOR only to see PANZER DRAGOON come along and when that went missing came SOA and SHENMUE which led to YAKUZA. I'll give you this that they're not making as much as they should.  

Is it incompetence? Lack of funds or what? because what i 've justr described has been Sega's release list for the past three years. BAYONETTA did not perform as well in the west as it should have done,MADWORLD well we all know the story on that, ALPHA PROTOCOL and countless othersthat make me wonder if it was EA, or some other third party publishing these titles would they have done better?

Its a bit of both. I do get the issue with Bayonetta is sold over a million and for any new IP that's a great start, more so given the timing of the games window. Alpha well there'a great game in there, it just full of bugs and looks like shit (that killed it chances for me) and a game like Madworld was just doomed to fail on the Wii, I think most people could see that 1 coming.

Not really, AVP was just as buggy but it didn't stop it selling very well. Why? Because part of the reason was it reached its target audience with a good campaign. I can't speak for the states but the AVP game was advertised when Channel 4 happened to have an an ALIENS season on film four, and apparently they also advertised it when Predator was on from what sharky said. Now all they had to do with MW was put it on something like ITV4 when they had some type of mad max or escape from new york movie on(which they do all t he time) and so on. All they did was sell it on e4 when smallville was on back to back i may add. totally missing the type of person who is into this game.

In those cases I don't think EA could have done much better, and it took them a while to established Bad Company or Dead Space . Sometimes a developer needs to take a chance with new IP and make a sequel , I just wished SEGA did that with Val on the PS3 and stuck with the PS3/360 for a sequel.

Stop cracking the val nonesense really its getting old and pathectic now. i told you that it was getting a sequel ages back because it was planned on being a franchise while you of course harped on that it wasn't and now you changed tact by claiming its failed because its on the PSP. Get this, PHANTASY STAR is on the psp and so is SHINING FORCE. both have seen exceptional sales. You keep talking about sega not making good buisness decisions but when they do you say its a failure. Is it the perferred option, probably not. But Val never exactly flopped either and the sales kinda prove that with the last two games.

Do Sega need to use CANVAS more effectivly? Of course but again market forces seem to conspire against sega at every turn.

Also like EA did in a past , SEGA have a bad and quite unfair Rep of destroying classic Teams and IP  even with its own fans now, not helped with average updates to Sonic or NiGHTS, Monkey ball (but people overlook updates to VF and VT ECT).  SEGA Japan needs to update a classic IP for the Next Gen, just to show the fans the Teams and SEGA can do it and create good will and make it MultiPlatform (stop hurting your own fans Not everyone has both a 360 or PS3) Like how EA took the likes of Need For Speed back to the drawing board, EA is even making a sequel to Mirror's Edge , that shows some balls

What fans? They don't HAVE any fans that will buy any sega product. See again your plan will NOT work until sega fixes its image problem. They did this back in their genesis and saturn periods in different markets and we all saw the results. Until then no one game is going to fix this problem be it an update or a SHENMUE 3 because they will both either flop or not sell as well. BAYONETTA and VANQUISH is proof of this.
AS for the EA point...
No they don't, not compared to EA. At least with sega the teams usually get done in at the end of any specific era like your namesake due to the close of the saturn, camelot getting kicked out or the break up of the Sega teams DC era and the dawn of the third party era.

[Team Andromeda]

Stop spinning. You got caught out. Face up to it and move on. No one with SS's experience is going to say that and meant he was talking about 2d stuff. Only a novice is going to think that. Throw backs in these type of disscussions when talking about current games has ALWAYS meant the gameplay experience being a throwback and usually meaning an enjoyable one. Only you would ever think that it was n't. Like i said carry one trying to explain that it wasn't and that it means 2d and all that jazz, it makes you look more stupid

3rd person action games like GOW have only been able to be done since the birth of 3D on the consoles and with consoles that had bit of grunt like the X-Box and PS2 and so we started to see action games like DMC and Brute Force and even they pale to Gears,  In those terms 3rd person action games (the genre it's self)  are far from old school..

Because the MD was dead by the time the Saturn arrived

Not inthe USA or Europe; Hence why the 32X was used to build and expand on that userbase. A fatal mistake, but never mind.

if sega had to create a lot of games and go MP as your advocating than they are spreading themselves too thinly in a shruken marketplace.

Everyone is Multiplatform now, The spec's of the 360/PC/PS3 are now closely matched and its just a case of  leading with the PC and then optimising one's code  ready to port down for each console. It is more or less what all the major 3rd parties like Ubi, 2K, EA do,and how they make the money and get the sales

Well they couldn't make the exact game could they with all that different power, and you're acting like these systems were all out at the same time when they weren't.

In 1995, One had the ridiculous situation of SEGA having 2 Dual 32 Bit platforms, both of which needed separate budgets to market offer 3rd party support and for SEGA teams to make games for,  you still had  selling/supporting the Mega Drive and Game Gear and trying to run a Arcade side. Just madness more so for a company of SEGA size and with limited funds.

2k games doesn't sell well in the east. neither does Ubisoft

GTA had been a good seller in Japan for a number of years now, and that's beside the point. Japan is a shirking and declining market, it's the West where the sales and real money is to be made 'in the main'

Devil May Cry and Metal Gear can sell well in all markets because they are estabilshed.

All games start from the same standpoint. DMC/MGS weren't gifted sales at all, but it helped those sort of games had ideas and gameplay that could appeal to both major markets.  

New ips in the last several years have not sold as they should. This is one of the points you keep ignoring

 New IP like  Gears of War, Drakes, Lost Planet , Assassins Creed, Red dead Redemption sell, Borderlands, Saints Row, Bioshock sell, Mass Effect have all sold in the millions and in the case of the likes of Bioshock, Red Dead & Borderlands there were risky projects

I want Sega to update games when they want to not because they have to but prehaps in that you are correct that times have changed

I do, and to be honest they'll not be many calls for the money men to update Classic SEGA IP, that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen

Not really, AVP was just as buggy but it didn't stop it selling very well

AVP had a big name Licence behind it, and for many the temptation of playing as Marine with those classic ALIENS sound effects is just so compelling, plus it looked better and was, far easier to get into and people knew what to expect . AP didn't look great, was buggy and a brand new IP so people didn't know what to expect, that can always hinder a new IP

it was planned on being a franchise while you of course harped on that it wasn't and now you changed tact by claiming its failed because its on the PSP. Get this, PHANTASY STAR is on the psp and so is SHINING FORCE. both have seen exceptional sales.

Don't come it, You are the one that said the PSP was dead and SEGA dropped all support . The reason why Val is on the PSP is because it didn't sell great on the PS3 and everyone knows it.  
Sometimes like with Dead Space is can take time and takes a 2nd game to establish new IP.

What fans? They don't HAVE any fans that will buy any sega product

What no fans on here ?. There still a few SEGA fans around, but the current SEGA is losing them,with poor updates or just not making the games that interest them, like them used too

Until then no one game is going to fix this problem be it an update or a SHENMUE 3 because they will both either flop or not sell as well. BAYONETTA and VANQUISH is proof of this.

I really don't think a Multi Platform  Shenmue III would flop, and Bay and Vanquish are not SEGA developed games, and I do get sick of people bring them up as such . SEGA needs to relight some of the old magic and make either new IP or update classic IP that used to wow and impress SEGA and non SEGA fans alike.

[ROJM]

Stop spinning. You got caught out. Face up to it and move on. No one with SS's experience is going to say that and meant he was talking about 2d stuff. Only a novice is going to think that. Throw backs in these type of disscussions when talking about current games has ALWAYS meant the gameplay experience being a throwback and usually meaning an enjoyable one. Only you would ever think that it was n't. Like i said carry one trying to explain that it wasn't and that it means 2d and all that jazz, it makes you look more stupid

3rd person action games like GOW have only been able to be done since the birth of 3D on the consoles and with consoles that had bit of grunt like the X-Box and PS2 and so we started to see action games like DMC and Brute Force and even they pale to Gears,  In those terms 3rd person action games (the genre it's self)  are far from old school..

Nobody mentioned the genre TA. Nobody mentioned GOW or any other title. VANQUISH was old school in the type of gameplay experience. Spinning this crap about 2d and now the genre just to save face. Just give it up. You got caught out, admit it and move on.

Because the MD was dead by the time the Saturn arrived

Not inthe USA or Europe; Hence why the 32X was used to build and expand on that userbase. A fatal mistake, but never mind.

Not really. I was talking about japan which not only was the MD dead naturally over there but they essentially helped kill off the MD market before it was and the general public was ready to move on.

if sega had to create a lot of games and go MP as your advocating than they are spreading themselves too thinly in a shruken marketplace.

Everyone is Multiplatform now, The spec's of the 360/PC/PS3 are now closely matched and its just a case of  leading with the PC and then optimising one's code  ready to port down for each console. It is more or less what all the major 3rd parties like Ubi, 2K, EA do,and how they make the money and get the sales

A company like Sega is across several machines, not just the high end but mobiles and other systems that don't have the same spec.

Well they couldn't make the exact game could they with all that different power, and you're acting like these systems were all out at the same time when they weren't.

In 1995, One had the ridiculous situation of SEGA having 2 Dual 32 Bit platforms, both of which needed separate budgets to market offer 3rd party support and for SEGA teams to make games for,  you still had  selling/supporting the Mega Drive and Game Gear and trying to run a Arcade side. Just madness more so for a company of SEGA size and with limited funds.

A situation cause by Sega Japan.
But really Sega wasn't making that many MCD games when the 32x came to market,the master system was dead by that time and sega long stopped making titles for it which really leaves the game gear genesis and 32x. And when the saturn did begin to gain traction the 32x was dead in 96. So, no.

2k games doesn't sell well in the east. neither does Ubisoft

GTA had been a good seller in Japan for a number of years now, and that's beside the point. Japan is a shirking and declining market, it's the West where the sales and real money is to be made 'in the main'

One game? :lol:
So's the west. Did the recession just pass you by? If you think the west games market is recession proof think again, maybe the overall market will have one good year left but you will see a drastic change. I know its diffulcult for you to understand but sega is a international company that make games for many different markets. Unlike EA and the others who really rely on just the western market for their income, Sega historuically relies on more than that.

Devil May Cry and Metal Gear can sell well in all markets because they are estabilshed.

All games start from the same standpoint. DMC/MGS weren't gifted sales at all, but it helped those sort of games had ideas and gameplay that could appeal to both major markets.  

Tosh, they've been uneffected and you know it unlike the newer japanese IP. but keep talking about non japanese games to prove a point i never originally made.

New ips in the last several years have not sold as they should. This is one of the points you keep ignoring

New IP like  Gears of War, Drakes, Lost Planet , Assassins Creed, Red dead Redemption sell, Borderlands, Saints Row, Bioshock sell, Mass Effect have all sold in the millions and in the case of the likes of Bioshock, Red Dead & Borderlands there were risky projects

But not in Japan, that's the point. Keep harping on about the west but none of those games sell in japan as well as none of the newer japanese IPs sell great over here. Again you purposely miss the point.
but let's remind him...

Nope only recently have they started to do that. again since 2002 both markets have been focused on titles that typify each markets particular tastes. The only titles exempt from this are the games that had a big name prior to that divide. HALO never sold big in the east but neither has YAKUZA sold well in the west. Yet Sonic, Devil May Cry and Metal Gear can sell well in all markets because they are estabilshed. New ips in the last several years have not sold as they should. This is one of the points you keep ignoring.

Its great to see a quote in context so it can't get manipulated by someone refusing to debate on a fair basis. Now when it(the recession) does hit and believe you me it will, what will the likes of these companies you like to beat sega on do then in a shrinking western market or should i say american one. Theres already been signs of a slow down already in the games market. none of these companies make international appealing titles, just games that westerners like.

I want Sega to update games when they want to not because they have to but prehaps in that you are correct that times have changed

I do, and to be honest they'll not be many calls for the money men to update Classic SEGA IP, that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen

?

[

AVP had a big name Licence behind it, and for many the temptation of playing as Marine with those classic ALIENS sound effects is just so compelling, plus it looked better and was, far easier to get into and people knew what to expect . AP didn't look great, was buggy and a brand new IP so people didn't know what to expect, that can always hinder a new IP

That's only to the people that are into ALIENS or/and gamers. But AVP didn't reach those sales alone because just the gamers and akliens fans brought it. And license or no, if a game is buggy as hell then it won't get far. AVP sold well for a good two to three months. AP had at least a good pedigree behind it in Obsidian so the game being buggy just isn't going to cut it. sega didn't do their job properly in marketing.

it was planned on being a franchise while you of course harped on that it wasn't and now you changed tact by claiming its failed because its on the PSP. Get this, PHANTASY STAR is on the psp and so is SHINING FORCE. both have seen exceptional sales.

Don't come it, You are the one that said the PSP was dead and SEGA dropped all support . The reason why Val is on the PSP is because it didn't sell great on the PS3 and everyone knows it.  
Sometimes like with Dead Space is can take time and takes a 2nd game to establish new IP.

No you come off it. I said that when Sega dropped support for a good two years before they went back to it. That doesn't change the fact that you were simply wrong. Nothing to do with how well the game did. you said it flopped you said it won't get a sequel and you were wrong. The PSP is a better market for RPGs and the proof with the other recent Sega RPGs sales indicate this. try again.

What fans? They don't HAVE any fans that will buy any sega product

What no fans on here ?. There still a few SEGA fans around, but the current SEGA is losing them,with poor updates or just not making the games that interest them, like them used too

Not enough to support SHENMUE, SOA or many other dream game. Sega doesn't have the fanbase support anymore. Accept that and move on. Like i said sega has a collection of fans that are into particular franchises that they have but they don't have a strong enough collective that would buy any Sega game product like capcom, konami and EA does.

Until then no one game is going to fix this problem be it an update or a SHENMUE 3 because they will both either flop or not sell as well. BAYONETTA and VANQUISH is proof of this.

I really don't think a Multi Platform  Shenmue III would flop, and Bay and Vanquish are not SEGA developed games, and I do get sick of people bring them up as such . SEGA needs to relight some of the old magic and make either new IP or update classic IP that used to wow and impress SEGA and non SEGA fans alike.

It will flop because of the reasons already stated as for why i use Platinum games...Easy, because Platinum are the cream of the crop when it comes to a particular studio of developers and their titles didn't fare as well as they should. if sega can't execute that gifthorse to the public then what chance does a big consumer MP SOJ title have? None. That's why Sega needs to change/clean house and rebrand themselves with some identity like they did in the genesis and saturn eras. Then the rest will fall into place.

[Team Andromeda]

VANQUISH was old school in the type of gameplay experience.

How ?. The owes a lot to Gears, and like GOW is action 3rd Person shooter . Mindless shooting is not old school as such, it happens in a lot of old and new games alike

. I was talking about japan which not only was the MD dead naturally over there but they essentially helped kill off the MD market before it was and the general public was ready to move on.

SOJ still made and developed games for the 32X and the odd title of the MD, Plus the 32X used the same Twin SH-2's and needed development and library support from Japan . Just a mess and so much ovelaping, While SONY just had to focus all their attention on one console.

A company like Sega is across several machines, not just the high end but mobiles and other systems that don't have the same spec.

So not making all their major Big games multi platform makes even less sense, more so given the poor Japanese market.

A situation cause by Sega Japan

They should have had the balls to stop the 32X and drop and tell SEGA West to drop the MD altogether, and for the whole of SEGA to focus on just one console to develop for and Market.

But really Sega wasn't making that many MCD games when the 32x came to market,the master system was dead by that time and sega long stopped making titles for it which really leaves the game gear genesis and 32x. And when the saturn did begin to gain traction the 32x was dead in 96. So, no.

It many not have been many, but it was still too much for any company. And well in 1995 and 1996 it was clear that both the 32X and the Saturn had more than lost the battle to SONY in the West

So's the west. Did the recession just pass you by? If you think the west games market is recession proof think again

The recession hurt the likes of Appel with the I-Phone, the I-pad, 360 and PS3 have seen great sales , even with the recession, the PS2 lauched in one of Japan's worst ever resssions and sold over half a million on day one, and when did the likes of Red Red redemption ship ?  People tend to stay in more in recessions and that can mean some nice sales for games

Unlike EA and the others who really rely on just the western market for their income, Sega historuically relies on more than that

You always try to be funny and the clever one. EA games are on sale in Japan , EA do deals with the likes of Square and EA, has any Saturn users would know, published the likes of Souky and Battle Battle Garegga in Japan and looking back is no good, It's the here and now and the Japanese Market is in massive decline and the Money is to be made in the West (for most games)

Tosh, they've been uneffected and you know it unlike the newer japanese IP.

DMC was never multi Platform and now is, and MGS is now coming out on the 360 as well as the PS3, a Marked change for DMC.

Its great to see a quote in context

Why do your quote your self and then replay to it (has if I posted it)

beat sega on do then in a shrinking western market or should i say american one. Theres already been signs of a slow down already in the games market

Really you post a thread saying SEGA biggest market is Europe and now try and make out it's in decline. Just look at SEGA own sales, they pale to the western market .

That's only to the people that are into ALIENS or/and gamers. But AVP didn't reach those sales alone because just the gamers and akliens fans brought i

Everyone loves Aliens and I sales owe a lot to that, and the good word of mouth of the 1st Alien VS Predator game on the PC.  Its why if SEGA can nail Marines , they'll be seeing a million seller for sure.

No you come off it. I said that when Sega dropped support for a good two years before they went back to it.

You said it was a dead system and SEGA had dropped all support, End of

Nothing to do with how well the game did. you said it flopped you said it won't get a sequel

It did flop and that's why we had the Platform switch.

The PSP is a better market for RPGs and the proof with the other recent Sega RPGs sales indicate this. try again.

Really?, so why wasn't the game made outright for the PSP in the 1st place, And SEGA putting its RPG's on the PSP and the likes of PSO owe so much to Capcom and Monster Hunter massive sales on the PSP.

Not enough to support SHENMUE, SOA or many other dream game. Sega doesn't have the fanbase support anymore. Accept that and move on.

SEGA Japan might as well call in a day then and move on and cancel Sonic, VF, VT PSO, Moneyball and any old IP with the past SEGA and gerentaion or earlier And with regards to Shenmue, I'm sure there's a million and more fans and sales there

but they don't have a strong enough collective that would buy any Sega game product like capcom, konami and EA does

So these companies have the bigger and better fans and sales?.

.Easy, because Platinum are the cream of the crop when it comes to a particular studio of developers and their titles didn't fare as well as they should. if sega can't execute that gifthorse to the public then what chance does a big consumer MP SOJ title have?

I think bay sold well for a new IP. Vanquished well that was hurt by SEGA complete lack of a push and the game lacking Multiplayer modes . Like I said even for Major Corps like EA a Big IP will fail (like say for Bad Company ) but EA gave it another go and say BC II sell by the truck load.

That's why Sega needs to change/clean house

What SEGA needs to do is learn how to Market games and start to make some AAA In-House Multi Platform games, and make decent sequels to Sonic and the likes of PSO . To get its name back .

[Chaosmaster8753]

Takashi Iizuka, if that's really him on Twitter

That's not him. It's just someone making fun of him by exaggerating the things he says. Plus, you kind of remind me of John Kricfalusi.