Mario is slipping

[Barry the Nomad]

Is it just me, or has the Mario series gone down hill? Or at the very least, become stagnant. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed recent games, but it just seems that the series has been very VERY samey over the past few years.

Super Mario Galaxy was, in my opinion, the last truly great Mario game in terms of new ideas, originality, returning concepts and graphics. That was in 2007.

Since then the franchise has REALLY pandered to nostalgic Mario fans who love SMB3 references and 2D gameplay. New Super Mario Bros. Wii is fun, sure, but its so much a "more of the same" sort of game. It's essentially an expanded New Super Mario Bros (DS) with prettier graphics and 4 player gameplay. and New Super Mario Bros itself is more of the same. I read somewhere on the internet, and it stuck with me, that recent Mario games feel like they're built from all the same assets. Like, they can create great new stages in terms of layouts and design, but the look is essentially the same. Princess kidnapped, a few new poer ups, move from mushroom kingdom to brown landscape to winter to desert to haunted mansion to lava cave, fight Bower, game ends.

I'm totally cool with Peach kidnapped being a usual thing, but why not mix things up? Change the scenery more often, stop using the same music again and again. Drop old power ups and introduce new ones. Introduce new enemies!

Super Mario Galaxy 2 was a great game, but again it was very much an expansion of an existing game. Granted, Mario Galaxy 1 itself had fresh ideas, so a sequel that expanded on those wasn't a tired concept like the many 2D titles, but even so, it was nowhere near as a new addition to the series.

Since Super Mario Galaxy 2 we've had a slew of samey titles: NSMB2, SM3DLand, NSMBU. NSMBU is the worst offender in my opinion. NSMB2 is more of the same, SM3DLand is an excellent showcase of the 3D and a great meld of 2D/3D Mario, despite again being samey. But NSMBU is a launch title with Nintendo's HD console! They should be offering up something on the Super Mario Galaxy scale, not a sequel to NSMBWii! Of course, Nintendo fans will say "Well an epic 3D Mario is coming", and I'm sure it is. But they should be pissed off about NSMBU, not give it a pass and say "Well the next game will be great!".

---

Note I didn't mention Sonic throughout this, because I wanted to focus on non-SEGA stuff and not bring Sonic arguments into it. But I will say that in terms of music, environments and enemies Sonic shines in variety. Sure Heroes, '06 and Werehog are shit. But at least the stages felt fresh and varied, despite still feeling like a Sonic game, and the music was always new. Imagine if every Sonic game from 1998 onwards was straight up repeats of 1991-1997 stages over and over and music was simply the same from the Genesis era remixed again and again. Only real difference were a few new power ups, some new enemies in addition to old ones and improved graphics.

I don't know, Sonic seems to get so much shit yet I think Mario is just as bad but for different reasons. In fact, I'd say from 2010-2012 Sonic beat Mario. And not just in terms of varied stages and music, but in terms of gameplay as well. Only time when I'd take Mario over Sonic is 3D Land over Generations 3DS, which I still enjoyed but not as much as the Mario title.

[CrazyT]

Well this is defenitly an interesting thread.

Personally I think people are kind of exagurating. Mario's main games have always been great, on any platform that wears the Nintendo brand but Mario has always had average spin offs. It's only after new super mario bros 2 people have been starting to say this more often.

New super mario bros 2 is what you would call a rehash with a coin gimmick and it's defenitly understandable why people would say this. New super mario Bros 1 and the Wii version were great games, but the franchise's 2D games deserve some spicing up with a new framewerk. Despite al this, the franchise is still standing strong and solid is ever.

I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your sentiments on Mario Galaxy 1 to be the last great mario game. Mario 3D land may not have the same production value, but the fun factor is close. Super mario galaxy 2 allthough a sequel with the exact same controls, had every reason to exist. It would have been a waste if they didn't reuse the concepts because they resulted in some brilliant gameplay, and as Miyamoto said, there was still so much to get out of it. I would actually not be able to imagine anything better than it, well except for better visuals. It's easy to call it an expansion because they reused a solid engine, but it made sense.

I also don't get what you mean with the word samey, because mario's gameplay is defined and if it's the defenition of mario gameplay what makes it feel samey, then it's like you're expecting that they should make a mario game that doesn't play like a mario game. Kind of like how Sonicteam keeps redefining it's series and dividing the fanbase.

I think where it comes down to is the next big mario game, which is not going to be a super mario galaxy 3. I imagine it will be another big mario game that will be worth 10's

About NSMBU. I think when it comes to the 2D games, that's the only part where i'd agree with you. The 2D games defenitly need something fresh. Allthough the background in NSMBU are really nice.

Overall i'd say that I agree that mario doesn't(always) do anything new. I mean look at the mario kart games which always feel like the same games again. I think Mario's power doesn't come from redefining their series over and over again, but the series is built around ideas of how to reuse existing mechanics with a subtle new element and let creativity take over the rest of the work.

[Barry the Nomad]

By samey I mean visual/setting wise, it's the same thing over and over. Mushroom Kingdom start, head through the desert, the snow, the tropical island, the castle, the lava lair. I just mean that the tropes are so similar game after game. It especially becomes apparent from NSMB through to NSMBU.

I guess most of my complaints are in reference to the 2D games. 3D Land is great, as I said, but it still is very samey in terms of the environments.

Gameplay isn't really an issue of mine, aside from the 2D titles. With the 2D titles it's really starting to get stale. NSMBU is definitely not a system seller.

I think thats what has been annoying me. Gameplay? Good, I agree with you. They take what works in the last game (which is usually much of it), add a bit, and offer up new stage layouts. But over time each game just feels like a "best of" all the previous games. It's like they're playing it TOO safe, and the nostalgia is starting to wear.

While I didn't like Sunshine, I did like the balls they had to go in that direction. I'd love to see the next Mario title go to a whole new place with largely new enemies, no kidnapped princess, new environments, an end boss that isn't Koopa, new music with few if any recycled themes. Still build on the gameplay, no need to scrap that, but give players something fresh. That's what I'm getting at.

[CosmicCastaway]

They aren't anything like the other Mario titles, but have you played the Paper Mario games Barry? I rather like those games.

[Barry the Nomad]

I have not, but Sticker Star looks cool. The Paper Mario games look like games that I'd best enjoy portable, so I'll give them a go.

[CrazyT]

Yeah I forgot about the Mario RPG's, which are not only more original than you're average japanese RPG's, but even more rich and with alot more depth than them.

I agree with the sameyness when it comes to tropes. This has always been sonic's strength and i'll always prefer sonic's visuals to Mario's. I personally like sonic colors alot in this department. Sonic colors has the best tropes and visual spectical you can find in a platformer. I guess that is one complaint, but mario galaxy did pretty well in varying from it's predecessors. But the rest of the series does indeed suffer from alot of Deja Vu in the visual design.

Personally I can't really say mario is slipping. Nintendo overall is having a tougher time so I think since the new super mario games are selling so well (the DS game sold 20 million) they are starting to milk it to compensate with their losses they had lately but I think they made a huge mistake with new super mario bros 2. You can't fool people too many times and it's starting to get there with the 2D games. You could say that Mario's standards are just too high for them to have even 1 "okay"/rushed platformer, and it causes people talk even if a game is just "okay". But then again that only proves how good the series are. Just as comparison, if Mario had a main game in the quality of sonic generations, people would have complained about it's quality instead of the praise it is getting from us.

I just wanna mention that it may seem that i'm praising the games too much, but i've been just like any other SEGA/sonic fan in the past. I was against mario and was involved with the whole rivalry thing, but as you get older you don't judge that way anymore (at least me). What's good is good and credit's gotta be given where it's due. Mario games are really well crafted games imo and ever since a few years, they have had a major improvement with their music as well.

[max_cady]

Lol, I love how the title feels like an homage to the classic terrible Mario game, Mario is Missing...

But anyway, yeah,  don't have much to add about the whole issue, safe to say that as far as game mechanics go, the Super Mario games, or rather, the devs in charge of those are playin' it safe, but as Aesop himself once put it "Familiarity breeds contempt". Super Mario is a like a big juice stake that you that you eat on Sunday and every time you eat it, it feels great. It's got the right formula, it's well seasoned, the side dish is excellent, it's the perfect package. You've been eating the same steak every Sunday for the past 10 years, eventually you'll start to get bored of it. This is what I feel is happening with the Super Mario franchise.

[Nameless 24]

I only seem to like the Mario RPGs (Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario:TYOD being two of them), but even then I felt like the latest M&L wasn't as good as I hoped and Super Paper Mario got me stuck at one point in the game.

As for 3D Mario, I can't stand it (I give Sonic the same doubts but I did like a few of those 3D games, Colours being one of them), as it's very trial and error and pretty picky about it. I didn't like the HUB or the collect-a-thon part of 3D Mario either.

2D Mario wise...I don't mind it, but they're either too easy or too short. 3D Land was pretty good, but I felt that was short as well.

I am undecided on Mario as a franchise, I personally only like the older 2D games and the RPG offerings but other then that, I can live without plat forming Mario games.

I may get NSMB2 as I didn't mind the first one (although again, it's too easy/short).

I think it should take a leaf out of Rayman Origin's book this time.

[nuckles87]

Mario has his ups and downs. In the the 80s and 90s the market was flooded with some truly dreadful edutainment spin-offs, Super Mario Sunshine had lousy level design and camera and couldn't hold a candle to a 6 year old game on a less advanced system, and the original New Super Mario Bros. DS was a boring hum drum affair.

As far as I'm concerned, SMG2, Super Mario Land 3D, and NSMB2 have been some of the better affairs in the series history. Superb level design and genuine challenge made them a lot more entertaining then many of the titles that came before them. For me, anyway.

[ungibbed]

I admit I love Super Mario games and agree that Super Mario Galaxy was the largest breath of fresh air in ages not to mention having some rather great graphics and a wonderful soundtrack.

To this point. I do see more of the same despite some well tuned play mechanics in the current games (I can't speak for the Wii U yet), the latest Mario game I bought was the 25th anniversary All Stars release.

I was really disappointed that it was only the SNES ROM image burned to a retail disc when it would have seen more of a better value had it gotten the Saturn Sonic compilation treatment that Sega released. A neat hub world with digital interviews and other surprises.

Had Nintendo put the same amount of effort into the 25th Anniversary Mario All Stars collection, I wouldn't feel so cheated.

Still my long time favorite, Super Mario World from the SNES. Sure it may not be 3D, but it has aged gracefully.

[segaismysavior]

Barry, are you basing your opinion of NSMBU on brief impressions? I haven't played it, for the same reasons as you list, but I did hear and read that apparently it gets brilliant and very different from the other 2D games after the first few worlds. It piqued my interest in trying it, but I've avoided all the NSMB games after the first one cause though charming they are, they just don't do it for me like they used to.

[Barry the Nomad]

Since this post I have played NSMBU a bit more (demo kiosks, again, but with more time) and it IS a fun game. I'll give it that. I think I'm just getting numb to these 2D Mario titles. Plus, if I have yet to own and play NSMBW and NSMB2, I see no point in rushing to get a Wii U. Then again, I'm not a diehard Mario fan... but I do get excited by certain titles. 3D Land sold me on the 3DS, I think Nintendo really needs a big 3D Mario title for Wii U to catch my interest again. And not a Galaxy 3. I think the planet gimmick has been played out.

[Duplex]

Both Mario and Sonic need to learn from Rayman Origins for their 2D games. I've really grown tired of that soulless 3D pre-rendered look that infects both 2D Mario and Sonic games. As for the 3D ones, I think they're doing just fine. I've never been a big fan of 3D platform games outside of Banjo-Kazooie, so I'm probably not the most qualified critic of that genre.

I still love the RPG Mario games, even though the newer ones don't hold a candle to Superstar Saga or Thousand Year Door. It's been a while since we had a straightforward Mario RPG that knew what it wanted to be. Super Paper Mario is the prime example of a Mario RPG that didn't know if it wanted to be a platform game or an RPG.

[ungibbed]

Since this post I have played NSMBU a bit more (demo kiosks, again, but with more time) and it IS a fun game. I'll give it that. I think I'm just getting numb to these 2D Mario titles. Plus, if I have yet to own and play NSMBW and NSMB2, I see no point in rushing to get a Wii U. Then again, I'm not a diehard Mario fan... but I do get excited by certain titles. 3D Land sold me on the 3DS, I think Nintendo really needs a big 3D Mario title for Wii U to catch my interest again. And not a Galaxy 3. I think the planet gimmick has been played out.

I tend to agree on the Mario Galaxy series. While they were among the best looking games for the Wii never dropping below a steady 60FPS, I really wasn't much of the whole "Galaxy concept". Sure it did very well to add new elements to the traditional gameplay of a 3D Super Mario platformer, both games lacked that magic of the first time playing Super Mario 64.

The N64 graphics didn't age well but the fun is still there but now very similar to drinking a beer thats gone flat.

I do own NSMB:Wii and even with a 2D play style like the DS game before it, there are moments the game really shines and can get pretty tough. My only gripe is only being able to use the Wiimote for a controller held NES style. I prefer the far more comfortable classic controller and would have loved to use analog input as an option if needed to creep along or run full bore without having to hold down the 1 button.

Shiggy is one hell of a creative game designer and best in that position much like Captain Kirk in charge of the Enterprise. Sure young minds bring fresh ideas, but I'm sure those at Nintendo are banging their heads on a wall trying to think of something new. Sunshine on the Gamecube was an odd departure and felt really unlike a real Super Mario game in comparison to the NSMB games.

I haven't gotten a chance to get my hands on the Wii U to give the game a go even if for a brief moment (holiday shopping crowds are scarier than zombies!), so I really can't pass judgment just yet on the latest game, only the Wii version I own along with both Galaxy games for the system.

Something truly new needs to be there. Back in 1991 when the Super Nintendo hit the shelves here in the USA, Super Mario World really made it's mark on gaming history. Not only showing the abilities of the Super NES, but being a damn fine game with so much to it that it has aged incredibly well. Still after all these years it's the best selling Virtual console game on the Wii along with LoZ:LTTP, and pirated far more than thousands of other games for use on various emulators from Windows and Mac OS X to various cell phones.

I feel Mario should take a return to his roots, much like Sonic, they were best on the 16 bit systems and I'm sure Nintendo has the ability to still show the power of the Wii U in a new yet retro side scrolled that we all have played at least once in our lives.

I almost thought of writing a concept years ago with the time travel mechanics of Sonic CD but with a twist. Going back in time brings you the pixel art of the 8 bit roots and future with the lush 3D visuals similar to Sonic 4 and so on. Even throwing 3D into the mix with the various elements of visualization in whatever time period you may be in.

Something like that may not be entirely new, but a hell of a way to make us older gamers take notice as well as younger ones who may have never seen what Mario was like on the NES.



So much for my quick reply, it evolved into a editorial! 

[Nameless 24]

Mario needs a rest...I like the RPG games usually...but so far Sticker Star is pretty pointless in it's battles...you grind for coins it seems....that you use for more interesting battles....which doesn't make Mario level up or anything.

I love Intelligent Systems...other then AM7 they are one of my favourite devs, but perhaps they need to step away from Mario this time if another RPG is going to be made....

Kid Icarus I absolutely hated, it was trying to be too many things and came off like it was trying to do a Sonic with the attitude and the trolling. Sakarai is good with Smash Bros...but I don't think he's good with things like KI when it's trying to be something it's not....and I know it has it's fans...but the control system as well as the dialogue and the almost repetitive gameplay bugged me.