Sonic Boom Thread

[Saturn Memories]

The problem was the game was already getting bad press from all the media outlets which forced SEGA to change it into a Wii only title. And whilst I did enjoy the sequels, the changes in the basic gameplay told me Iizuka just didn't get what made the original NiGHTS great, something he continues to struggle with Sonic too.

This isn't what happened at all. JoD was never announced as a multiplat nor, I believe, has Sega ever publicly acknowledged that it was intended to be. The information was leaked sometime in 2008 (after JoD's release) by a now-former Sega employee who ran a little-known anonymous blog. Presumably, the game was shifted to the Wii because management felt it would be more at home on that console and capitalize on its run-away success. The leak was able to be verified in part because of additional information within that same post about the then unreleased Sonic Unleashed. The man was later identified (I forget who he was, but if I dug hard enough I could turn it up), and he deleted his blog. Last time I checked it was still accessible through archive.org. The point here is that no one outside of Sega knew for sure that JoD was intended for any console other than the Wii until around 2009, meaning the press definitely didn't know in 2007 prior to its release. If you can find a 2007 article criticizing a non-Wii version of the game, I'll relent, but I'm confident that you won't.

Even with the bugs the game is terrible. Unimaginative boss fights, poor level designs, auto-sections all over the place, the game had very basic problems and giving it an extended development time would not solve the issues unless scraping the entire game was part of the plan.

Rushed development could've factored into it too.

But the number of critics who do are few and far between, most seem to be of the opinion the series is the pinnacle of gaming. I've never been keen on Mario but I cannot say Nintendo's platformer series is not one of the most polished in the industry so working on the same IP again and again should not force the sloppy mistakes Sonic Team kept making from 2003 - 2009.

They're still regurgitating a lot of the same ideas again and again. Super Paper Mario basically found its way into the new Zelda on 3DS, which itself reuses the exact same overworld from the very first game in the series. And while on the subject of Zelda, how about Skyward Sword? Tons of redundant quests/missions just for the sake of padding things out. Extremely disappointing game.

[Radrappy]

http://kotaku.com/5989192/amazons-potential-jump-into-cloud-gaming-and-other-secrets-from-the-world-of-video-games

Couple that with Sonic: Lost World having a port to one of the Xbox 360/Playstation 3 in January 2013 and we know that they had a tech demo ready for March 2013 so Sonic Boom having the other versions up and running was a real possibility.

Sure, but to be fair next gen could have referred to the wiiu.  They have mentioned multiple times that they develop games before a platform has been locked down for the title.  This doesn't mean there was a working 360/ps3 version of Boom or Lost World per se.  There was probably never more than one version of either game, seeing as how everything is developed on PC (or whatever is handily available) anyway. 

I will say that for a franchise overhaul of this caliber, it doesn't make a lot of sense to have it be a console exclusive.  You want this title to reach as many players as possible. 

[Aki-at]

 

This isn't what happened at all. JoD was never announced as a multiplat nor, I believe, has Sega ever publicly acknowledged that it was intended to be. The information was leaked sometime in 2008 (after JoD's release) by a now-former Sega employee who ran a little-known anonymous blog. Presumably, the game was shifted to the Wii because management felt it would be more at home on that console and capitalize on its run-away success. The leak was able to be verified in part because of additional information within that same post about the then unreleased Sonic Unleashed. The man was later identified (I forget who he was, but if I dug hard enough I could turn it up), and he deleted his blog. Last time I checked it was still accessible through archive.org. The point here is that no one outside of Sega knew for sure that JoD was intended for any console other than the Wii until around 2009, meaning the press definitely didn't know in 2007 prior to its release. If you can find a 2007 article criticizing a non-Wii version of the game, I'll relent, but I'm confident that you won't.

The game was shown in a close door presentation and was revealed in the very same blog that you're talking about, he even mentioned how disappointed he was with the HD version.

Rushed development could've factored into it too.

Most games are developed within two years, Sonic the Hedgehog had a three year development cycle (Development started straight after Sonic Heroes according to the leaked script Sonic Retro obtained) The schedule wasn't the issue but the people behind the project.

They're still regurgitating a lot of the same ideas again and again. Super Paper Mario basically found its way into the new Zelda on 3DS, which itself reuses the exact same overworld from the very first game in the series. And while on the subject of Zelda, how about Skyward Sword? Tons of redundant quests/missions just for the sake of padding things out. Extremely disappointing game.

I'm not a fan of Nintendo in general but whilst you can find their games disappointing, this isn't true for the most gamers or critics alike. But as I said, they have worked on the same franchise for years (Along wiith Bungie, Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio etc) and they still manage to churn out quality game after quality game. Really the issue for Sonic Team wasn't they were working on the same franchise (Which was going downhill since Sonic & Knuckles despite working on other titles) but the personal involved.

[Aki-at]

 

Sure, but to be fair next gen could have referred to the wiiu.  They have mentioned multiple times that they develop games before a platform has been locked down for the title.  This doesn't mean there was a working 360/ps3 version of Boom or Lost World per se.  There was probably never more than one version of either game, seeing as how everything is developed on PC (or whatever is handily available) anyway. 

I will say that for a franchise overhaul of this caliber, it doesn't make a lot of sense to have it be a console exclusive.  You want this title to reach as many players as possible. 

I can't speak of Sonic Boom, but I know from the same person that told me about Sonic: Lost World before SEGA showed off any gameplay that there was infact a non-Nintendo HD version of Sonic: Lost World in development as late as January 2013.

I'm just assuming they were readying Sonic Boom for multiple platforms originally but got locked down in the exclusive contract, wither other version existed is another point entirely, that was speculation on my part. But the intention does seem to be there that they wanted it to be as big as possible.

[Radrappy]

 
I can't speak of Sonic Boom, but I know from the same person that told me about Sonic: Lost World before SEGA showed off any gameplay that there was infact a non-Nintendo HD version of Sonic: Lost World in development as late as January 2013.

That's pretty fascinating.  One could argue that the months up to the game's release were probably wasted on implementing wiiu pad wisp functionality, but that still wouldn't have left them much time to fix core problems with the games' level design.  Still, would have been interesting to see the reception had it been multi platform.  My instinct is to assume the reception would have been even harsher.       

[Aki-at]

That's pretty fascinating.  One could argue that the months up to the game's release were probably wasted on implementing wiiu pad wisp functionality, but that still wouldn't have left them much time to fix core problems with the games' level design.  Still, would have been interesting to see the reception had it been multi platform.  My instinct is to assume the reception would have been even harsher.       

I do think so yes. The problem with Sonic Team is they would sometimes take on the extra hustle for no reason. The Werehog was an idea disliked by the Western branch of SEGA but Sonic Team kept with it whilst with Lost World they took it upon themselves to add the Wii U pad functionality despite the QA staff (Apparently, read this on GAF via a verified user) protesting against it.

Whatever it is, I think Sonic Team will merely be a "Good" studio with Iizuka at the helm and never great because they will continue with their own beliefs thinking they are hot shit and whatever idea they come up with is the greatest thing ever, rather than taking a step back and analyzing what works and what doesn't.

[Saturn Memories]

The game was shown in a close door presentation and was revealed in the very same blog that you're talking about, he even mentioned how disappointed he was with the HD version.

Found the blog post in question. It's actually from 2007. Seems we're going to have to split the difference on this.

On the game and Sonic Team's state/working conditions:

...work didn't even begin on this Wii version [of NiGHTS] until around Sept/Oct 2006 (up to that point it was being developed for X360/PS3 until those platforms were canned against Iizuka-san's wishes) and it's due out [December 2007]. Take into account the 4-6 week Nintendo submission time and you're basically talking about roughly a year's actual development (i.e. coding; not pre-production) time.

...[NiGHTS] only came about due to a combination of Iizuka-san's efforts and Sega's managers finally relenting and giving Sonic Team a brief break from the monotony of Sonic related development (e.g in Sonic Team USA's case Shadow The Hedgehog) - there is no genuine expectation from Sega's bosses that this title will perform well and thus they will spare little development time, thought and marketing spend on it.

I know how they work, and the (difficult) conditions they work under. I also know the aforementioned Iizuka-san, the director of this new NiGHTS game (who was also one of the leading creative forces behind the original NiGHTS). Knowing all this, I am still not hopeful (not, I should clarify, for any lack of faith in Iizuka-san's talent and commitment, neither of which are in question; but rather because of the environment and conditions he has been forced to work in on this project).

Sonic Team managed to keep its name (at least externally for marketing reasons) and position thanks to the efforts (and in no small part the massive ego) of Yuji Naka. But this move was what trapped the team in a Sonic-filled purgatory, and ultimately led to Naka's departure in 2006. Instead of using the re-structuring for good Sonic Team became complacent slaves of their earlier successes. Their primary goal now is purely business driven: to please the managing directors wth good ROIs; this is not so abnormal - it is a business after all - but they leave little room for creativity and originality in their particular brand of working practices.

On an early demo at the Tokyo Game Show:

Iizuka-san originally only wanted to make NiGHTS 2 on the X360 and PS3 - his vision for the game, which was a pretty grand one, could only be done on those platforms he argued and development started on them, even though the actual GDD was still being fleshed out and a Wii version was being considered.

By the time of TGS last year there were playable ROMS on X360 and the general response to the code was not positive. At this stage the directors questioned the X360/PS3 SKUs and suggested that Wii may be a better choice. Iizuka-san was against this because it would mean reigning in certain aspects of his design, but nonetheless Sega Studio USA (AKA Sonic Team USA) drew up a comparison doc for Wii and X360/PS3 version pros and cons. The summary of this was that they could produce a quick Wii version by FYO8 (2007) and then go onto a different version of NiGHTS 2 on X360/PS3 for FY09 (2008). By different I mean, different like Sonic The Hedgehog on X360/PS3 was a completely different title than Sonic Wii.

[Aki-at]

Not sure I should even sympathise though, a lot of the issues that Sonic Team have faced were brought on by themselves and not just SEGA's corporate structure. Although a year's development time is rough, as I pointed out significant changes to just the core gameplay of the NiGHTS stages tell me Iizuka didn't get what made NiGHTS brilliant and leaves me to be rather dubious if we would have gotten a quality production even if he had been allowed to go with his original vision. I also would not absolve Iizuka of all blame like the writer did when he is one of the core reasons Sonic Team went downhill so rapidly.

If we break it down case by case some of the things Sonic Team are mostly guilty of;

- The dark and mature nature the Sonic series was driven in was purely down to Sonic Team.
- The sloppy and glitch-prone gameplay was more down to the skill of the developer than rushed development schedule. Ryu Ga Gotoku for example has a yearly release but maintains mostly quality entries outside of OF THE END.
- Ignoring the misgivings of multiple gameplay elements introduced to the series post Adventure such as; auto movement with boost pads/grind rails, homing attack and the boost mechanic. Iizuka believed they were all great ideas and was shocked to find out some people disliked the homing attack.
- Padding their games to no end with poor extra gameplay types. Granted they finally learnt their lesson here.

And so on, you could place some issues at SEGA. Their lax policies on checking their development team's output quality is certainly one but Iizuka is guilty for a lot of problems too. Originality and creativity is fine but their products were broken at the very core. You could excuse NiGHTS as down to troubled development sure, but what about the changes in the basic gameplay? (A minor change no one asked for!) What about Shadow the Hedgehog? Billy Hatcher? Sonic Unleashed? Heroes? The personal behind the product is ultimately responsible.

[Chaosmaster8753]

Super Paper Mario basically found its way into the new Zelda on 3DS

Are you referring to the wall drawing thing?

which itself reuses the exact same overworld from the very first game in the series.

A Link to the Past is the third game in the series...

[Saturn Memories]

Look, you've obviously got your views on why they suck, and I've got mine. I'm not claiming that if Sega management stepped out of the way and gave Takashi Iizuka free rein to make whatever he wanted that it would turn out to be spectacular, but I certainly don't think he or Sonic Team are completely devoid of talent either. I feel the truth lies somewhere in between a middling development studio working on a product they don't really care for anymore (and, to be frank, isn't very well suited for 3D anyway) and the meddlesome and self-sabotaging corporate overlords who keep them locked up in the Sonic sweatshop.

Now I could keep going back and forth with you on this, but more than half this topic has been dedicated to doing just that, and I'm tired of it. So yeah, I'm done.

[Aki-at]

I've never said that Sonic Team are completely devoid of talent but they bring most of their troubles onto themsleves. They've made good games recently (Generations, Colours) they've made terrible ones (Black Knight) some just right in the middle (Sonic: Lost World) and they've forced their vision on other teams (Sonic 4) Whilst you can argue they might have lost their heart on working on the franchise I don't really see how that should excuse them from failing to produce a viable product, it is their job after all.

But we'll agree to disagree on this matter and move back onto Sonic Boom.

I really liked this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK6uQyteDOU

I'm hoping they keep these up to help promote the games, I always enjoy seeing stuff like this and never understood it why they didn't to promote people like Nagoshi or Kikuchi using video interviews. I'm hopeful the game will be good but it might be too far from what is Sonic for me, whatever the case the level design seems to finally suit the series.

PS. Buy them up SEGA if they're a talented bunch, just to get the bitter Sony fanboy tears regarding a Sly 5.

[George]

I understand the idea for the 'big knuckles' and 'Tails' redesigns. I just don't buy the sports tape.

[Ben]

Just really quick;

I do think so yes. The problem with Sonic Team is they would sometimes take on the extra hustle for no reason. The Werehog was an idea disliked by the Western branch of SEGA but Sonic Team kept with it whilst with Lost World they took it upon themselves to add the Wii U pad functionality despite the QA staff (Apparently, read this on GAF via a verified user) protesting against it.

It's been said in the past that the Werehog and similar gimmicks was partially because at the time (and still today, to a degree) Sega had a policy in place where every new Sonic game had to have a new "gimmick" that they could use to market the game. Hence, the Werehog, the Sword, the 2 Sonics, and the Wisps. So it's definitely a mix of both parties being at fault.

And to be fair to Iizuka, he had nothing to do with any of the Sonic games that came out after Shadow the Hedgehog (so he was not a part of Sonic '06, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Unleashed, or Sonic and the Black Knight) up until the current era, though I agree that I think Sonic right now needs someone more visionary than him leading it.

[CrazyT]

I'm hoping they keep these up to help promote the games, I always enjoy seeing stuff like this and never understood it why they didn't to promote people like Nagoshi or Kikuchi using video interviews. I'm hopeful the game will be good but it might be too far from what is Sonic for me, whatever the case the level design seems to finally suit the series.

PS. Buy them up SEGA if they're a talented bunch, just to get the bitter Sony fanboy tears regarding a Sly 5.

I agree I found it a very interesting watch. Especially the part in which they're going back to the "action adventure" genre they've avoided since sonic sonic 06(lol for obvious reasons). This is what's bothered me about sonicteam's interpretations of reviews in general. Because I feel like there was never anything wrong with the concept while sonicteam seems to have put the blame on the concept instead of their terrible implementations of it. And when sonic rush and sonic and secret rings scored so well in comparison to, it was a simple sum for them and I really disagree with that way of (shallow) thinking. It did deliver 2 great games I guess. You know I liked sonic lost world but many people didn't seem to for reasons I can aknowledge.

My hopes is that this is going to be a great game so that sonicteam can discover that it can be done right and they take inspiration of what I get the impression to be a studio of great people. S

And lol at the sly comment. Why aren't these guys at sony anymore? I never knew untill this game's anouncement but I like what they've shown of the concept art. I can see a bit of crash bandicoot in there, in a good way. The expression art is great. Tails especially stands out for me :p

[RegalSin]

In my opinion, I just want Sonic to go back to his, Adventure state with Grounder and Scratch. Sonic did all kinds of crazies, stuff, so why not now? A perfect world where, everyday is another day, not another ring, or emerald hunt. I mean just like Sonic Cartoon, maybe once in awhile we have something, but not every other day is a search for that worm-hole to return to Samurai Jack hone. Sonic was innocent, like Conker, and then they kept making loop-holes that made no sense, but the loop-hole kept getting bigger.

Every Sonic game after Sonic Adventure is a Comic ( Manga ) Sonic, and has a bunch of stories pushing Sonic to his limit.

This new Sonic, which they are nicknaming Boom ( after the SATAM Animation ), is trying to reach consumers who long for simpler times, but wants Sonic to continue inside of that universe which is already built.

The sport tape is a distraction, from the oblong shape of Sonic and his friends. What is up with Amy Rose, she looks like she is even more hornier ( commercialized sexy ) then ever, except without the the super happy ecstasy in her eyes ( I guess they have to give something feminine ), only Sonic seems to be happy asides for tails. Speaking of add ons, what about the ones from the Sonic II boxart for tails. Tails looks like a blasted car salesman, while knuckles and Sonic together looks decent, they both could be decent height-ed. They are animals, for crying out loud.

But Sonic does not go on adventures, he can speed up to the point where he could glide thru the air.
I will admit, all of these add-ons, a fan does not need. So now the fan base is so stupid, not to know that Tails, is into electronics, and stuff, knuckles is tuff, and Amy Rose is after Sonic.

They ruined her. Amy is not a strong and independent woman. She is not a lesbian. She is not a neo-fem-nazi, who is going crazy over this and that. She is just sonic biggest fan, and admires him near and far, and wants to have his children, and do all kinds of insane stuff with him. She is Mira from "Family Matters'. The hammer is just her "gun in the purse" bit, to make her equal in combat, since she is not like Sonic, and do all of these amazing things. She is not Dot, Maxx's Jungle Queen, or Princess Leia. She just idolize Sonic like how girls idolize Elivis, and Michael Jackson, Robb Lowe, and sadly enough Justin Beiber ( yuck ewwhh ). I will admit, among the five characters they did preserve her a big, but otherwise no. Damsel in distress.....

Knuckles is a knuckles head. I mean he is being portrayed as an islander or even commercialized Jamaican identity ( Angel Island ), he has a cowboy hat ( which you can find many people in the west indies wearing ). Making him bigger does not really change the fact that they took away his uniqueness and gave him weaknesses. Knuckles is strong, and not too bright, but we all ready know this, heck he stopped Sonic in his tracks in Sonic Three.

Lets be honest, what is wrong with Sonic? Sonic keeps jumping consoles. That is it, and everybody who does not own the game or console bitches because they do not own it. I could go on to flaws of the games, stories, and characters but the reality is the formula that made Sonic work, was Sega having a game system, to put him on. They make Sonic bad on purpose.

Making the characters age, is what they did wrong.

Everybody loves the characters, Nobody hates the characters at all, but seriously Amy and that "Gun" in her hand, while Knuckles is dependent without his muscles, and Tails has his wrench. Real nice, you just created Sonic the ghost busters. Everybody has a power pack, everybody has a weapon on them.

Sooooooodasa.......they are going to make the game into an J-RPG, an Action game, an "Beyond Good and Evil", with a bunch of logical environments, that does not seem too far fetch ( like the god forsaken, missiles on the top of buildings, or the highways the loop-d-loop ). Beyond Good and Evil,
where you can drive into the atmosphere then back on land, go inside of your house get some sleep, drive around a highway, and then enter a building, go down the sewers, get drifted out. In general making Sonic inside BGE, world but try to make us think of Mobius.

Tv series comedy...................... Ha ha ha they mean to say Cartoon but cartoon is an evil word for people who speaka Animemangakagaka, so he says comedy. CGI Reboot, Transformers Beast war, Donkey Kong Country, Viva Pinata.

They make Robotnik sound cheap and dumber then the scientist on "Mystery Science teather 3000". I miss the cartoonish Robotnik from Cartoon. He was super bad. Alternate dimensions? Alternate dimensions? Alternate dimensions? is that the excuse? Robotnik took over and is fighting his less eviler self? So is this going to be like GI Joe, or X-men, one with the good Sonic characters, while the other with the evil sonic characters??? Robo-Sonic, Robo-Amy, Robo-Tails, Robo-Knuckles???
I like the fat dumb angry Robotnik, from the Cartoon, not the stupid speaking one, who is from the Japanimtion.

Oh wow, robotnik killed an E-series wanna be robot.......and Knuckles whip cream fillingggg will shoot out............................................He lives on an island, with a built in theme park, that flaots around, why would that make any sense at all??? Sonic is going to argue with Robotnik about names...........okay I like that been done.

What I see is a bunch of English folks ( westerners whatever ) doing what Capcom Europe did to Maximo ( Ghouls and Goblins ). They are releasing a CGI animation, that has no logic, and making a game that has no logic with the whole series. They updated the characters with logic,.

I see a terrible CGI waiting to occur, with what could be a decent game. That is it. Knickles( ha ha Nickles ) doing the Mario climb, Amy Rose using her "Gun" in all kinds of weird ways, and Tails being in the background. Sonic and knuckles are too tall, and while not bad looking, they are like fan made creations. They are not bad but come on.

The year of Sonic? The year of Sonic? 2006 ws the year of Sonic and come on 2014. Sonic always had a two watch, or radio, but not all the time. Eggman removing his chair also is weaker. So this game is sly cooper + Crash Bandicoot? So Enchidas are prehistoric Hedgehogs?

Finally Robotnik has animal Robots, but now they are just animals and not just robots.