The DC opened the door for Xbox...

[ROJM]

And SEGA along with Yamaha had to develop its own priority disc medium . You don't things like that on the Hop, things like that need to be done very early in; Hideki Sato-san made it very clear in one of his 1st DC interviews why SEGA didn't go the DVD route and it was simply down to costs of the DVD Drive's that would add to much to the retail price of the DC and SEGA not being able to sell the DC at even more of a loss.

Dont you ever read what people type? I said clearly that the second series of meetings was about the DVD inclusion and then it was decided that they couldn't incorporate it. The costs was just a public line because stupid people like you don't understand the details. It wasn't simply just ruled out but a series of decisions that eventually came to the point of ruling it out. Regardless it was a big mistake to do it after simply dismissing it.

? No it just had more to do with the Western market was growing and where you made the most money and profits . Nothing at all to do with PC gaming just the fact that America was where the bucks were and still to this day are to be made

You're an idiot. PC gaming now here is where i type big..WAS THE BASTION OF WHERE WESTERN GAMING WAS BASED AT AT THAT TIME. The type of genres that came to console was stalwarts in the PC gaming world and that's a fact. Geezus f christ.

The PS2 with its bigger Ram and twin sticks was far more suited to PC ports , the only ace up the DC sleeve was the on-line side of things, . The simple fact is , people wanted a PS2 for its console games not for any PC ports and if one looks at the XBox it wasn't really sold on it's PC ports as they weren't that many.

Yawn...Again can't you fucking read. The tide was changing between japanese console games and western type games that was the norm on the PC. The PS2 was the last of the great japanese style game systems. By the time of the 360 western gaming for consoles was influx. Stop trying to come out with things to make yourself clever infront of everyone else here when it was clear on what was said and meant in the first place. Anyway i give up. I'll talk to someone who isn't trying to deliberately twist my words.


 

[Team Andromeda]

The costs was just a public line because stupid people like you don't understand the details.

2nd meeting . Give a break you act like you were there . It was cut early in and down to costs issues . Unlike SONY SEGA doesn't manufacture it's own parts , it wasn't not part of the MEPG , or the MMCD group or own any major films studios unlike SONY .


Not only would SEGA pay a fortune to use the DVD Drive it would have to pay for the rights of DVD format to play films and if that's not enough unlike SONY would also not make money on any DVD film sold. In end it was non brainer for SONY to move to DVD, for SEGA already losing millions it was a cost they couldn't take

WAS THE BASTION OF WHERE WESTERN GAMING WAS BASED AT AT THAT TIME

What on earth on you on about . In the Mega Drive days 'Western studios' made loads on the back of the Mega Drive and its sales in the West. Some of the biggest selling games on the PS (not PS2) were western developed and had nothing at all to do with PC sales and


Before you lay the insults learn your 'console history '

The PS2 was the last of the great japanese style game systems.

PS3 sold very well , so did the Wii , so is the PS4 . The only difference is the japanese market is total crap and that was the case for years . Hence why some of us have been saying for over a decade That SEGA Japan thinking of games made only for Japan and one system in a total backward steps and 90's thinking .


Again learn your console history 

[ROJM]

2nd meeting . Give a break you act like you were there . It was cut early in and down to costs issues . Unlike SONY SEGA doesn't manufacture it's own parts , it wasn't not part of the MEPG , or the MMCD group or own any major films studios unlike SONY .

No sh*T. Still didn't stop Sega from considering the idea.
and Series of meetings. it goes on all the time in any business enviroment.

Not only would SEGA pay a fortune to use the DVD Drive it would have to pay for the rights of DVD format to play films and if that's not enough unlike SONY would also not make money on any DVD film sold. In end it was non brainer for SONY to move to DVD, for SEGA already losing millions it was a cost they couldn't take

Apart from the fact Sega wasn't in dire straits when they build the DC as opposed to after the DC era.

What on earth on you on about . In the Mega Drive days 'Western studios' made loads on the back of the Mega Drive and its sales in the West. Some of the biggest selling games on the PS (not PS2) were western developed and had nothing at all to do with PC sales and

There was NO megadrive in the 2000s. What the hell are you talking about?!

Before you lay the insults learn your 'console history '

I know my console history. You don't. Which is why you keep switching back and forth.

PS3 sold very well , so did the Wii , so is the PS4 . The only difference is the japanese market is total crap and that was the case for years . Hence why some of us have been saying for over a decade That SEGA Japan thinking of games made only for Japan and one system in a total backward steps and 90's thinking .

 

Again you learn your console history. Japanese games as a dominant force began to run dry during the DC and PS2 era. The "new" gamers that was starting to come in went with the Xbox because they were more interested in playing western made games. By the 360 era those gamers became a dominant factor.
The point of this discussion which you are so busy trying to disrupt to throw your anti japan rhetoric was if the DC managed to get those type of games that was popular with these type of gamers onto their system than they might have held on longer. 

This has NOTHING to do whether games should be multi format because were talking about the DC here. A Sega system that Sega released their own games EXCLUSIVELY on. Stop trying to prove that you think you know it all and talk in the context of the discusssion and the time.

[Team Andromeda]

Still didn't stop Sega from considering the idea.and Series of meetings. it goes on all the time in any business enviroment.

Well when you're making a console its always open spec at the conception stage . DVD wasn't a goer at all for the DC very early in and thb other than Japan I don't think it would have made that big of a difference.

Apart from the fact Sega wasn't in dire straits when they build the DC as opposed to after the DC era

No were just posting massive losses for the year 1998 .

There was NO megadrive in the 2000s.

Take the time to read . I said 'in the Mega Drive days' . Western developers started to do very well on the system and some of the MD best selling games came from the West .

Japanese games as a dominant force began to run dry during the DC and PS2 era

It started to happen before the PS2 days one could see it in the PS days that western developers were uping their games and started to complete toe to toe with the Japanese in terms of budgets and man power put on to games . Some of the N64 games best selling games came from the west too

The "new" gamers that was starting to come in went with the Xbox because they were more interested in playing western made games.

The PS2 had far more western games. Gamers went to the XBox for its unmatched power and the fact that it did have some great exclusives and sure it focus on western style games hit with the die hard gamers . But for all that and tons of cash from MS the system just about outsold the Cube and was hopelessly outclassed by the PS2.


HALO wouldn't have made any real difference to the DC . It would never have been able to handle half of what the XBox could and unlike MS. SEGA had little cash left to push the DC much less HALO . Even with MS millions it took until HALO II for the HALO series to explode . SEGA trouble with the DC was it just didn't have the money to push the system, it lacked 3rd party and retail support.


HALO wouldn't have done anything to change that , just like the likes of Quake 3 made little impact on the DC   


 

[ROJM]

No were just posting massive losses for the year 1998 .

Not enough to damage the company or the D c would never have ben made and neither would the saturn been supported up to 1999/2000.

Take the time to read . I said 'in the Mega Drive days' . Western developers started to do very well on the system and some of the MD best selling games came from the West .

I'm not talking about the MD days or what went on before, that's the point.

It started to happen before the PS2 days one could see it in the PS days that western developers were uping their games and started to complete toe to toe with the Japanese in terms of budgets and man power put on to games . Some of the N64 games best selling games came from the west too

I'm sure it did but the japanese games still had dominance with the type of gamer that you had during the DCPSXPS2 era. The gamer that dominates now were starting to come in when the Xbox entered its second year. All i'm saying is if Sega had managed to get certain key PC ports released on their system maybe they might have benefited enough that they wouldn't bein the position that they are now in.

The PS2 had far more western games. Gamers went to the XBox for its unmatched power and the fact that it did have some great exclusives and sure it focus on western style games hit with the die hard gamers . But for all that and tons of cash from MS the system just about outsold the Cube and was hopelessly outclassed by the PS2.

Course it did because of its libary base but not the exposure compared to their japanese counterparts. And again i'm not talking about hardcore gamers i'm talking about joe bloggs and each generation of joe bloggs gamers want something different from there systems at various eras.

HALO wouldn't have made any real difference to the DC . It would never have been able to handle half of what the XBox could and unlike MS. SEGA had little cash left to push the DC much less HALO . Even with MS millions it took until HALO II for the HALO series to explode . SEGA trouble with the DC was it just didn't have the money to push the system, it lacked 3rd party and retail support.

Still i beleived they might have been able to turn it around but of course what fucked sega over was the mess up they made during christmas 2000 when they had a very good advantage but didn't exploit it but it was also due to a bit of retail consumer apathy as well.

HALO wouldn't have done anything to change that , just like the likes of Quake 3 made little impact on the DC   

It would have opened the door with what was to come.


 

[Team Andromeda]

Not enough to damage the company or the D c would never have ben made and neither would the saturn been supported up to 1999/2000

SEGA was posting losses of over 200 million dollars when it was showing off the DC. We can thank the late great Isao Okawa for more or less bank rolling SEGA and the DC project . Saturn was just slightly different even in 1997/8 Saturn games could sell from 100,000 to 200,000 copies which for more Saturn games were enough to turn into decent profits .

I'm sure it did but the japanese games still had dominance with the type of gamer that you had during the DCPSXPS2 era

To a point but the likes of Tomb Raider and GTA III started to sell millions and millions , so did the likes of Goldeneye , Jax and so on . Japanese games no longer had the advantage of massive teams and budgets. If one looks at the best selling PS2 game of all times its the UK developed GTA San Andreas with ridiculous sales .

And again i'm not talking about hardcore gamers i'm talking about joe bloggs and each generation of joe bloggs gamers

Joe bloggs didn't buy the XBox . Its XBox sold well to the die hard gamer and they made the difference in the weekly games charts sales as the die hard gamer always buys new games and that was the ace up the XBox sleeve: For each XBox sold its had a high number of games to hardware ratio.

Still i beleived they might have been able to turn it around but of course what fucked sega over was the mess up they made during christmas

SEGA just didn't have the money to stay in the race and push the system really . Halo wouldn't had made much difference imo

It would have opened the door with what was to come.

If it had came out on the DC. Very few people would have bothered to play it imo, much less most of the DC gems it would have been overlooked by the masses, while they wait for a PS2 version of the like . It makes me sick that games like PSO aren't multi million sellers - games like that were SEGA Japan at their very best and leading the way


 

[ROJM]

SEGA was posting losses of over 200 million dollars when it was showing off the DC. We can thank the late great Isao Okawa for more or less bank rolling SEGA and the DC project . Saturn was just slightly different even in 1997/8 Saturn games could sell from 100,000 to 200,000 copies which for more Saturn games were enough to turn into decent profits .

No. because if he had than Sega would have easily been able to include DVD in the DC. Bing!

To a point but the likes of Tomb Raider and GTA III started to sell millions and millions , so did the likes of Goldeneye , Jax and so on . Japanese games no longer had the advantage of massive teams and budgets. If one looks at the best selling PS2 game of all times its the UK developed GTA San Andreas with ridiculous sales .

Yes that's when the shift happen but those games didn't start to outsell japanese games until the Xbox was firmly estabilshed i'd say 2004 would have been when you started to see it becoming more evident than just a handful of franchises. By the time the PS2 was on its last legs the shift or transistion was complete that the market could support many new western IP and not just games that already had a recognisable name. Japanese games like RE or DMC are at the sales level a lot of western games that sold good were for PSX/PS2 but weren't able to sell on the level of their japanese counterparts.

Joe bloggs didn't buy the XBox . Its XBox sold well to the die hard gamer and they made the difference in the weekly games charts sales as the die hard gamer always buys new games and that was the ace up the XBox sleeve: For each XBox sold its had a high number of games to hardware ratio.

Yawn Joe Bloggs did buy the xbox or the system wouldn't have been able to survive as long as it did let alone a followup if they didn't regardless of how much money M$ put into it. The type of people buying the Xbox weren't interested in japanese game anymore and that was the whole point. The Xbox managed to catch that type of gamer and profited from it by the time their follow up system came out.

SEGA just didn't have the money to stay in the race and push the system really . Halo wouldn't had made much difference imo

Halo is an example i mentioned several other titles which you haven't said anything on. I'm talking about if those games had been released on when they were supposed to.

If it had came out on the DC. Very few people would have bothered to play it imo, much less most of the DC gems it would have been overlooked by the masses, while they wait for a PS2 version of the like . It makes me sick that games like PSO aren't multi million sellers - games like that were SEGA Japan at their very best and leading the way

Actually if it was released in its early form maybe.But i doubt it was going to be like that for DC anyway.It also depends on who was releasing it. Bungie or Sega. i think if they had been able to do what they were planning with the games and the network than Sega would have managed to release a follow up system because they could have turned it around with the western sales.

[Team Andromeda]

No. because if he had than Sega would have easily been able to include DVD in the DC.

He was a businessman and there to make money , not lose money hand over fist . The fact that SEGA were already started to post massive losses before a single bit of DC Hardware was sold, meant that the DC had to be made with some sort of sense with it and DVD was just to costly at the time

Yes that's when the shift happen but those games didn't start to outsell japanese games until the Xbox was firmly estabilshed i'd say 2004

I'm sure that the likes of Tomb Raider 2 and Goldeneye each sold 8 million copies. That's massive sales in anyone book and slowly was starting the treat of Western games matching Japan games for gameplay, graphics and even sales .


[/size]

Joe Bloggs did buy the xbox or the system wouldn't have been able to survive as long as it did let alone a followup

The XBox lost MS 4 Billion dollars . MS huge bank balance bank rolled the machine and the XBox always had the higher console to game ratio . Joe gamer went with the playstation [/font][/color]

The type of people buying the Xbox weren't interested in japanese game anymore and that was the whole point.

There were quite a few Japanese games that did very well on the XBox . DOA enjoyed great sales  so did Ninja Gaiden and quite a lot had a hard core cult following .

Actually if it was released in its early form maybe.But i doubt it was going to be like that for DC anyway.It also depends on who was releasing it. Bungie or Sega

Well the Team had to pull the stops to get the game on the XBox for 2001 and by then the DC had it and SEGA was skint . I doubt Halo would have made any really difference to SEGA.

[ROJM]

He was a businessman and there to make money , not lose money hand over fist . The fact that SEGA were already started to post massive losses before a single bit of DC Hardware was sold, meant that the DC had to be made with some sort of sense with it and DVD was just to costly at the time

Than you just contradicted yourself. One hand you're saying he was there to bail sega out and another hand you're saying exactly the same thing i'm saying. You're not making ANY sense. as USUAL.

I'm sure that the likes of Tomb Raider 2 and Goldeneye each sold 8 million copies. That's massive sales in anyone book and slowly was starting the treat of Western games matching Japan games for gameplay, graphics and even sales .

But they weren't a norm. Japanese games still dominated and only a handful of western titles were big titles sellers. now its the reverse where the western titles dominate sales instead of the big name games.

The XBox lost MS 4 Billion dollars . MS huge bank balance bank rolled the machine and the XBox always had the higher console to game ratio . Joe gamer went with the playstation

joe blogs went to all  the consoles you silly man . The majority of them and gamers went with PSX2. But joe blogs went with nintendo and xbox. The difference is that the type of person that went with xbox was the type of consumer gamer we have dominating console gaming today. And now that era is ending and making way for mobile gamers.

There were quite a few Japanese games that did very well on the XBox . DOA enjoyed great sales  so did Ninja Gaiden and quite a lot had a hard core cult following .

A few is not enough. The majority were western titles that were becoming hits.

Well the Team had to pull the stops to get the game on the XBox for 2001 and by then the DC had it and SEGA was skint . I doubt Halo would have made any really difference to SEGA.

Yes i know that but i have mentioned numourous titles before the event of 2000/2001 happened. If sega had certain games rolled out maybe that might have been the changing factor.

[Team Andromeda]

Than you just contradicted yourself. One hand you're saying he was there to bail sega out and another hand you're saying exactly the same thing i'm saying

? . When you invest you hope to turn into a profit , now Okawa-san could have bank rolled SEGA and the DC project well past 2001 , but you don't become to be a billionaire by making many mistakes or sticking with a loss making product. Simple fact was SEGA would have a had a hard enough time selling the DC to the world if it were to add in a DVD drive to the system it would have added a couple of hundred dollars to the system cost and with SEGA already losing 50 odd dollars for every system sold it was too much to take. .


Early in it was showing it would have been too costly to put in the DVD drive into the DC and I say again only in Japan did it make much difference really , the rest of the world cheaper dvd players were coming into play by 1999/2000 bar Japan .

Japanese games still dominated and only a handful of western titles were big titles sellers.

But more and more western games started to put in great sales and get great reviews help sell the PS . Wipeout 2097, Fifa, Madden , Crash , Spyro, Rayman , Tony Hawks , Driver , Twisted Metal, GTA , Syphon Filter Ect are million plus sellers and that's in the PS days : That trend just continued with the PS2.

joe blogs went to all  the consoles you silly man

No the casuals didn't take to systems like XBox and hence you don't get the massive Hardware sales . XBox really sold the die hard gamer and that's how even with not the best Hardware sales its was able to have great 3rd party support as XBox users bought games every month : Something which Joe bloogs don't do just look a t the Wii for that .

If sega had certain games rolled out maybe that might have been the changing factor.

Halo wouldn't have been ready till 2001 and I doubt the DC could have handle what the XBox could -Given the massive difference in RAM. SEGA really needed the likes of Konami, EA and Square to put their big games on the DC that would have made more of a difference that HALO imo.














 

[ROJM]

? . When you invest you hope to turn into a profit , now Okawa-san could have
bank rolled SEGA and the DC project well past 2001 , but you don't become to be
a billionaire by making many mistakes or sticking with a loss making product.

You're the one ciontridicting yourself. Or backtracking which you seem to do on a regular basis...
 
 

Simple fact was SEGA would have a had a hard enough time selling the DC to the
world if it were to add in a DVD drive to the system it would have added a
couple of hundred dollars to the system cost and with SEGA already losing 50 odd
dollars for every system sold it was too much to take. .

Yes and than came along the matrix on DVD and the PS2 which was the cheapest DVD system out there started to sell more than it did before. You always miss the point don't you?

Early in it was showing it would have been too costly to put in the DVD drive
into the DC and I say again only in Japan did it make much difference really ,
the rest of the world cheaper dvd players were coming into play by 1999/2000 bar
Japan .

Early in their showing there was TWO competing DC systems. Than when the japanese version was the initial system to go with that was when the DC option came into play. First it was dimissed. But then it was looked into at another stage but the costs had already mounted and it was deemed too expensive to add it. That was the point. it was dismissed because SOJ management didn't have a clue until they realised their mistake when that option could have been viable. But of course believe the straight lace version and nott he reality...

No tDVD players weren't cheap in the west. boy you really are living in cloud cuckoo land..

But more and more western games started to put in great sales and get great
reviews help sell the PS . Wipeout 2097, Fifa, Madden , Crash , Spyro, Rayman ,
Tony Hawks , Driver , Twisted Metal, GTA , Syphon Filter Ect are million plus
sellers and that's in the PS days : That trend just continued with the PS2.

Sure. But not enough to start outselling the main japanese games.

No the casuals didn't take to systems like XBox and hence you don't get the
massive Hardware sales . XBox really sold the die hard gamer and that's how even
with not the best Hardware sales its was able to have great 3rd party support as
XBox users bought games every month : Something which Joe bloogs don't do just
look a t the Wii for that .

The casuals brought every machine. There were just more on the PS2. And more hardcore gamers on there too. And more average gamers. That is the point..

Halo wouldn't have been ready till 2001 and I doubt the DC could have handle
what the XBox could -Given the massive difference in RAM. SEGA really needed the
likes of Konami, EA and Square to put their big games on the DC that would have
made more of a difference that HALO imo.

Not really. And i'm not going on about Halo as much as the first wave of PC exclusive titles. if they had been released than they may have estabilshed that the DC was the system to do that and could have pulled more gamers to them at least to extend their run.

[RegalSin]

You folks are arguing about HALO???

If the Dreamcast is as powerful as the Gamecube, then yes it could have handled HALO itself. HALO was never really that big of a deal, at all. In comparison to the PC version, it blows away the X-box, unless mistaken.

X-box took Dreamcast spot, because by that time, all SEGA had to show was PSO, and SA2. They had tons of action games ( which is great ), but the current trendings, demanded that SEGA could out do what SONY and Nintendo had.

[Team Andromeda]

You're the one ciontridicting yourself.

Putting a DVD drive inside the DC would have added $200 to the cost of the system That was too much pain for SEGA to take even adding to the system retail price or SEGA taking a hit and selling the console at ever more of loss  . Its as simple as .

Yes and than came along the matrix on DVD and the PS2

And only in Japan did one see a massive impact on sales of DVD titles on the release of the PS2  . In the USA it didn't have that much of a impact and that's overlooking the playback of the PS2 was utter crap.

Early in their showing there was TWO competing DC systems

Only one DC was every shown off . The USA designed machine its self didn't have DVD and was meant to have used 3DFX and Power PC to power it, but those were dropped due to costs per chips .

But not enough to start outselling the main japanese games

Sure, but it was showing the trend and that was western tiles selling millions and also have big man power and budgets backing them .

The casuals brought every machine

I bet a few bought the Jaguar . But the reason why systems like the PS, 360 and Wii see massive sales is they also have the casuals on board and that's what systems like the Saturn and DC lacked and to a point the XBox.

And i'm not going on about Halo as much as the first wave of PC exclusive titles.

Wouldn't have made any difference really . Having the likes of GTA III, MGS II, FIFA, Madden, FF 10 on the DC would have more of difference than any PC game one could care to mention .

If the Dreamcast is as powerful as the Gamecube, then yes it could have handled HALO itself.

Gamecube was more powerful than NA@MI II which was 2 to 3 times as powerful as the DC/NA@MI . So no the DC couldn't have even came close to X-Box Halo . XBox CPU and GPU killed the DC spec's and XBox had 64 Mb of Ram compared to the DC 16 Mb and one saw the massive cuts Unreal Tournament had to have on the DC due to Ram issues and also XBox 256 audio channels pissed on the DC 64 and Halo featured some of the best 5.1 audio out of any game 

[ROJM]

Putting a DVD drive inside the DC would have added $200 to the cost of the system That was too much pain for SEGA to take even adding to the system retail price or SEGA taking a hit and selling the console at ever more of loss  . Its as simple as .

After the second series of meetings that was what they found out yes. Key word here SECOND...

And only in Japan did one see a massive impact on sales of DVD titles on the release of the PS2  . In the USA it didn't have that much of a impact and that's overlooking the playback of the PS2 was utter crap.

But that was the selling point that got the masses onboard the PS2 gravy train. So stop being a sony company man and pretend it wasn't a selling point over in the west because  it was.

Only one DC was every shown off . The USA designed machine its self didn't have DVD and was meant to have used 3DFX and Power PC to power it, but those were dropped due to costs per chips .

Never said it did have a DVD option. I said the option for DVD arose after they chose the jap model and discussions were raised to the board about that possiiblity to have it. They dismised it without looking into it. Then a second series of discussions arose where they actually did look into it.

Sure, but it was showing the trend and that was western tiles selling millions and also have big man power and budgets backing them .

Of course their was an evolvement but the type of western games being sold in the PSX/2 era were different to the ones that ended up dominating as they were more in line with the games you had on for PC

I bet a few bought the Jaguar . But the reason why systems like the PS, 360 and Wii see massive sales is they also have the casuals on board and that's what systems like the Saturn and DC lacked and to a point the XBox.

There was enough casuals on Saturn Xbox and GN but in smaller numbers. Not everyone that had that system would have been an avid gamer.

Wouldn't have made any difference really . Having the likes of GTA III, MGS II, FIFA, Madden, FF 10 on the DC would have more of difference than any PC game one could care to mention .

Not really. mainly because as i said the type of gamer was changing back then. We can agree the DC would have died anyway. The point is when would it have died if certain games that it did have came out for it when it should have done. I feel that it could have extended its life in the states beyond where it was.

Gamecube was more powerful than NA@MI II which was 2 to 3 times as powerful as the DC/NA@MI . So no the DC couldn't have even came close to X-Box Halo . XBox CPU and GPU killed the DC spec's and XBox had 64 Mb of Ram compared to the DC 16 Mb and one saw the massive cuts Unreal Tournament had to have on the DC due to Ram issues and also XBox 256 audio channels pissed on the DC 64 and Halo featured some of the best 5.1 audio out of any game 

I didn't say that.

[Team Andromeda]

But that was the selling point that got the masses onboard the PS2 gravy train.

I think it was more do with the fact that the PS sold so well in Japan and Japanese just wanted to buy its successor and they knew it had the support of Square and Enix - Massive blows to SEGA.
[/size]

After the second series of meetings that was what they found out yes

Its not found out . SEGA got smashed to bits for the expense of the Saturn and Mega CD at retail . One of the mistakes they weren't going to make again was a High retail price at launch . That meant the DVD wasn't a goer from the get go

western games being sold in the PSX/2 era were different to the ones that ended up dominating as

Only FPS really . The other big sellers like 3rd person shooters and GTA were already out on the PS and PS2

There was enough casuals on Saturn Xbox and GN but in smaller numbers.

No casuals don't buy games week in week out, Die-Hards do. That's why the XBox still had decent support from 3rd parties and systems like Wii had poor 3rd party support (despite massive sales)

We can agree the DC would have died anyway

It was, but if it was the 1st next gen  system to have FF 10, Fifa, Madden, MGS II and GTA III it might have been different .