What exactly is SOJ management good for?

[ROJM]

We all love SOJ when it comes to games. After all they are the heart of what we all love about Sega. But they have not been the factor that pushed Sega into the stratosphere. I assume many people know that Sega use to be an american company..founded by americans...brought to japan..became an anglo japanese company in japan...and actually helped found the arcade industry in japan..many of the principles that sega is built on..innovation and techincal advancement came from the americans...

Only in the early eighties did the company that most of us ever known SOJ came in being..when the japanese took control of the company and in doing so..the games shifted from american programming to japanese programming.

Yes the games became legends onwards that not many can touch. Except one thing has been holding them back. The inept stupidity of the SOJ management.
The reality is this. SOJ has never EVER had any real success by themselves. People count the saturn but that system also lost ground in japan. SOJ has the expertise and the talent to create great stuff. But their management has been and always will be a joke.
If sonic had been released in the states under SOJ management in control..no doubt that the character let alone the games would not really be around today. People say that the game could have sold by its own esteem. Well so could countless other Sega games that have been just as good as Sonic. The difference between those titles however not becoming household names was that SOA and SOE know how to manage a company. In the last nine years we have witnessed what happens when SOA and SOE have an element of some control in making decisions. The result has been Sega gaining market share in the west and in many cases being the big money maker in overseas sales from their reports because of the decision of SOE to get two developers at a great price to continue making franchises that have only gone strength to strength in sales.

All soj management has been good for is sitting on their laurels and getting fat off the profits without taking much of a risk. They already had strong control of the arcades..so they just let their developers continue to do what they were doing. Now they have a good standing in the digital side but their titles are just mimicing everyone else..and any talent that they have to go beyond that isn't showing themselves anytime soon.

The reason why Sega is a household name is down to SOA and SOE management. What they did in selling the games to the public was the important facto to why Sega is still around at least known to people today. Its no mistake that many of the games people clamour for from Sega were games that appeared during the early to mid nineties when the management of SOA and SOE were in control.



I know this wouldn't happen any time soon but would sega benefit if they had an american running the company? Because you can't get awa y from the fact that Sega's huge success has always been connected to its american/western side.

By the mid nineties Sega was everywhere. They were on tv, they had toys...they started to have arcade theme parks across america and europe.

By the end of the nineties when SOJ had control all of that was run into the ground. Many people keep acting that the subsidiaries are not really important in Sega history but the reality is they are the only ones that put sega where they are in the first place. The DC proved you can have the greatest games in the world but without proper management and compelling marketing..it means nothing to the public.

SOJ just doesn't know how to sell themselves. How can you gain control of Relic and Atlus and not even shout about it? If you weren't following the news or anything you wouldn't even know Sega owned them...especially Atlus which has no presence in the Sega world from what i can see.

If its not canning games that should be made...making games that shouldn't and not even bothering to release their big games to other markets that have supported them more than their home market ever has...as well as just making games that doesn't have an international flavor and too market centric(in this case japan centric) than Sega wil just be what it is now in the west... Sonic and PC acquired games..

To me SOJ has always been a mismanaged company under the japanese. Regardless on who is in control. I feel that they could evolve as a company further if they had a westerner in charge or at least a western heavy SOJ management team....and someone who isn't afraid of risks and is not a glorified yes man like Stolar was, the worst SOA president to have ever been next to the guy who took over his job after that(sorry but SJ wasn't that bad and i dont rage because he doesn't know who Yu Suzuki is, he didn't run sega into the ground).

I feel SOJ needs to change their management proto..

[Trippled]

I think SOJ is worse than it ever was. Sure they might have not sold to the masses in the SMS, MD and DC days in Japan but they still just really made great games for everyone in the world. And their western and japanese games blended in better. You really woudn't know SoR and Shinobi were japanese and that Comix Zone and Vectorman were western.

Today it just seems like generic western products and generic japanese products, broadly speaking.

[MadeManG74]

Q: What exactly is SOJ management good for?


A: Kindling.

[ROJM]

I think SOJ is worse than it ever was. Sure they might have not sold to the masses in the SMS, MD and DC days in Japan but they still just really made great games for everyone in the world. And their western and japanese games blended in better. You really woudn't know SoR and Shinobi were japanese and that Comix Zone and Vectorman were western.

Today it just seems like generic western products and generic japanese products, broadly speaking.

Well i wouldn't put VECTORMAN in that brush but i know what you mean..even though there was an obvious difference in looks and execution...Earlier games like SPIDER MAN however looked like they were made by SOJ when in fact they weren't. But that again as you just mentioned was the way SOA brilliantly marketed the games and used the different sources to create a compelling line up of titles...something Hayes managed to repeat during 2009-12...that combination of japanese and western titles that are in different genres arcade or consumer SOJ second party  or sega west made and all good solid titles..is what always has made Sega stood from the rest of the pack..back in the genesis era and in recent years before the drought...

Anyway it isn't the SOJ games i'm complaing about its the SOJ management which are two separate things. They're the reason behind this Sega drought were experiencing...and also the reason why they 're not making as much AAA console games as much..if ever during the third party era were still in. Its not the developers who are at fault since they can only go with what management tells them or want...if management stops a good idea for a game being made its of course the management..or the fact a lot of people ended up leaving.

[Nirmugen]

I see what you say, ROJM.


Something about that is what now Sega-Sammy is revising with another "Group Structure Reform" in the works.([size=78%]http://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/pdf/release/2014_4q_presentation_e__final__.pdf[/size] Page 25 for the info)


In resume, they wanna get rid of poorly performing businesses that ultimately hurt the company especially what happened in the FY2012 (the worst lost in 5 years for the Sega brand)


Also , this FY is the year of Sonic Generations, Binary Domain, Yakuza Dead Souls, Virtua Tennis 4, Mario and Sonic London 2012, London 2012,the last Marvel Games (Thor-Captain America) before Avengers, both Kinect Games (Rise of Nightmares/CS3 or Sega Wow and Sonic Free Riders), COnduit 2 , Spiral Knights , Shinobi/Super Monkey Ball for 3DS, Alien:Infestation, Renegade Ops and a ton of Ports and Digital Re-releases like Sonic CD and House of the Dead 3. And that's only for the West....

[Nameless 24]

I think in order for SEGA to become what it was, it would need to be bought out by an understanding American or European company.

Take out all of the management. Keep the employees and just tell them to get their creative caps on. Market their products depending on how well you think they will do (if a game flops, give them a smaller project, and vice versa if a game does better than expected).

Branch out your teams to look into other areas (for instance, perhaps AM2 makes the Arcade games, help them look into ideas on how to get their games onto consoles/handhelds without causing too much risk to their original vision of it being an arcade game...perhaps cut some content for the consoles, but give them an incentive as to why the Arcade experience is better!).

Give Sonic Team a rest from Sonic (unless they have a good, non-gimmick idea) and let an American company do something with Sonic without disruption from Sonic Team (but of course, I wouldn't want them changing the genre on Sonic either). I'd give Sonic Team two projects on handheld and console (nothing too big a budget), and advertise it well.

From what I currently see, SEGA has always been good at B-Tiered games (nothing wrong with that! It just means the games are of a reasonable price and usually have innovative ideas), so I'd market SEGA games at a lower price of $45/50 - £25 to entice anyone on the fence.

The company should also make sure to convince retailers to keep their games on the shelves too and advertise to potential gamers as to why the new game is worth their money.

Some of you may disagree with me on this (and it's fine), but I do like some of Nintendo's own marketing ideas like Iwata Asks and Nintendo Direct, even if it just targets a certain audience.

I'd advertise games like Sonic/NiGHTS and the like on Kid's Programs and at Prime Time, so the exposure is maximized and hire some influential artists to make the cover art stand out on shelves (something SEGA did a good job back in the early 90s.

Just some of my ideas.

[Mariano]

I agree in part but lets be honest here we can be discusing this all day long when is very clear to me that SEGA do this all the time. They decide something and then they try to reached, if they fail or not is a different thing but lets not think that SEGA is in control by monkeys who are smealing their asses all day. They can do better yes but lets not ask SEGA to be the one that it was because nobody in my opinion can do what SEGA did in the past, not even Nintendo these days because with all the respect i also think Nintendo is not the same that it was, i have many friends that are dissapointed with the current efforts from Nintendo for example but thats a different topic.


In my opnion almost the "only" thing that SEGA needs is a good localization work. Sure they can improve some of the quality in some of their games but the mayor problem here is the localization for me. When SEGA started to bring more games from japan in the Hayes era many people saw it as the "return" of SEGA (Thing that i disagree by the way...) but in the end of the FY 2011 in march 2012 like Nirmugen said the consumer division of SEGA reported losses of 12 billons on yen...and with cheng and J.post now in the west side the objetive seems to be "everithing but no risks" which is good for the company but not that good for the fans.


I agree with ROJM, the games are not the problem, every game that SEGA japan brings recently had quality, you may like it or not but they have quality, SEGA had very good developers in my opinion and all around the world. If somehow they can improve their localization department in a way that can bring them money (Like they are doing with Miku) we can say than SEGA would improve their image a lot in the future.


About the core topic i think every part of SEGA had made good and bad decisions but in the end sometimes they have to think what is better, sometimes is the fan and sometimes is them and that is a very hard decision to make. The localization is my solution, the problem is that i have no idea how to localize a game and earn money in the way, and problably either do them...

[Randroid]

Mariano, I agree on your comments on localization.

Sega as a whole was smart to keep the Atlus label as a separate entity. I bet there are people out there that don't realize that they are a Sega branch, regardless of the publicity during the merger.

If they were to continue being smart, they really really should boost up Atlus' localization departments to start localizing SOJ titles as Atlus titles. Atlus pretty much has a flawless rep with fans. Sega really should capitalize on that.

One series in particular that keeps coming mind is 7th Dragon. It oooozes Sega to people who know what to look for, but to the uninitiated it could easily pass as a native Atlus title.

It's funny when you think of it. Is Sega at the point where they should distance themselves from their own branding here in the west? Take Binary Domain, a fantastic, unique game. Would it have done substantially better if it wasn't branded as Sega? 

[Team Andromeda]

Anyway it isn't the SOJ games i'm complaing about its the SOJ management which are two separate things. They're the reason behind this Sega drought were experiencing.

The blame lies with Sammy . SEGA Japan saw its R&D slashed and now orders from the top as seen SEGA work on quick and easy games and hardly any risk taking and games made with quick development periods and smallish budgets . SOJ haven't helped its self with poor next gen pipe lines and not letting the young members of staff control their own lines and work on their own games and lead Teams


Its sad by now SOJ is a basic common boring 3rd party bar the odd good title here and there .

[ROJM]

The blame lies with Sammy . SEGA Japan saw its R&D slashed and now orders from the top as seen SEGA work on quick and easy games and hardly any risk taking and games made with quick development periods and smallish budgets . SOJ haven't helped its self with poor next gen pipe lines and not letting the young members of staff control their own lines and work on their own games and lead Teams


Its sad by now SOJ is a basic common boring 3rd party bar the odd good title here and there .

TA this japan centric problem started WAY before Sammy was on the scene. Not saying they are perfect but don't try to turn this as "its all Sammy's fault" or Sammy is forcing people to make mobile phone games when Sega was on that platform from 2001. SOJ management made tremendous mistakes from 2001-2004 before Sammy fully merged with them...
SOJ has all the moolah they want...i know things are been playing safe but they're not even trying anymore. The arcades has been shite since 20010 onwards..the games have become absent and the mobile games i'm not interested in...and most of them stay in japan while they are passing acquired studios as Sega games without the SOJ output in the west.

[ROJM]

When SEGA started to bring more games from japan in the Hayes era many people saw it as the "return" of SEGA (Thing that i disagree by the way...

Why? It was the return of how they did things back in the genesis era. Before then all we were getting in the west was a few Sega west titles that no one wanted to play, no arcade ports and bad sonic. From the Hayes era onwards you got interesting Sega west titles, a few AAA SOJ games, Sega arcade ports and some strong second party games for Sega. And it looked like it was going to get better until the abrupt halt. Was it a return to Sega coming out with the type of games they made back in the DC era? No but it was a period where they seemed to have sorted themselves out for once and it was showing. People was talking about Sega in a more positive light...also how funny that during that period Sonic was actually good to play..coincidence? Or just a reflection of how Sonic games reflect the period that they are released in?
As for 2012...well part of the losses would be of the titles they canned so that should be mentioned in the R+D costs if its in the public report...which i wouldn't use that as a bonafide guide since it only gives you an idea but not the full picture..

[Team Andromeda]

TA this japan centric problem started WAY before Sammy was on the scene. Not saying they are perfect but don't try to turn this as "its all Sammy's fault" or Sammy is forcing people to make mobile phone games when Sega was on that platform from 2001. SOJ management made tremendous mistakes from 2001-2004 before Sammy fully merged with them...

The blame does lie with Sammy at the end of the day. Sammy is all about short productions, easy and simple moves with as little risk as possible . You can see this not only on SEGA consumer side but now sadly also its Arcade side .


SOJ May have made more mistakes that we had cooked dinners, but they more often than not made sure the R&D side had plenty of money and were far more willing to task risks and let teams work on concepts that were risky or would take a while to come to life . There's hardly any of that now at SEGA Japan . Sammy made sure that SEGA is financially sound but at the cost of making SEGA Japan a half decent and well run corp - which while great for profits , its utter shit for us gamers .


I can't remember the last time I really looked forward to a SEGA game other than Sonic or PSO II , never mind the days when I lost to love showing off the latest SEGA game to a bunch of mates . These days the only thing that is SEGA is the logo the games could be made by any other corp , that is not the SEGA I grew up with or loved for decades

[Trippled]

About the Arcades, I think it stills brings some interresting projects to life. At least I don't think it's worse since the turn to giant online game cabinets for the japanese audience since about 2003.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziwnDwB3ts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqU0Km7svzE

Sega could be better, but not all potential is completly lost. Their always some good for some (postives) surprises.

[Mariano]

Why? It was the return of how they did things back in the genesis era. Before then all we were getting in the west was a few Sega west titles that no one wanted to play, no arcade ports and bad sonic. From the Hayes era onwards you got interesting Sega west titles, a few AAA SOJ games, Sega arcade ports and some strong second party games for Sega. And it looked like it was going to get better until the abrupt halt. Was it a return to Sega coming out with the type of games they made back in the DC era? No but it was a period where they seemed to have sorted themselves out for once and it was showing. People was talking about Sega in a more positive light...also how funny that during that period Sonic was actually good to play..coincidence? Or just a reflection of how Sonic games reflect the period that they are released in?
As for 2012...well part of the losses would be of the titles they canned so that should be mentioned in the R+D costs if its in the public report...which i wouldn't use that as a bonafide guide since it only gives you an idea but not the full picture..

Yes i agree but i was referring that in my case at least there were many games during the jeffery era that i really enjoyed. That idea of SEGA only released crapy games during that time is just that for me, an idea, but i agree that for the mass SEGA released bad games at that time and during the hayes era everything improve. But everybody with their opinion.


And about the losses those 12 billons yen are from the whole consumer division (TMS, SEGA, sega tOYS, Etc), not all was from SEGA but in the end it was a big loss, and made SEGA-Sammy start some changes.

[ROJM]

Yes i agree but i was referring that in my case at least there were many games during the jeffery era that i really enjoyed. That idea of SEGA only released crapy games during that time is just that for me, an idea, but i agree that for the mass SEGA released bad games at that time and during the hayes era everything improve. But everybody with their opinion.


And about the losses those 12 billons yen are from the whole consumer division (TMS, SEGA, sega tOYS, Etc), not all was from SEGA but in the end it was a big loss, and made SEGA-Sammy start some changes.

I'm one of Jeffery's supporters around here...after all he got the ball rolling..his mistake that he awarded too many dev contracts to too many of his friends and half of those games ended up in development hell..or getting caught up in legal litigation....or making stupid mistakes like not investing the money to the right studio like Hayes did... if he had n't wasted half of the money he would still been with sega now...

I'm well aware of the losses but it was more major because of the R+D costs..if they hadn't have that it would have been minimal..but that really would have been reflected in the 2013 report since the cancellations happened at the end of the year of 2012...

Sammy made sure that SEGA is financially sound but at the cost of making SEGA Japan a half decent and well run corp - which while great for profits , its utter shit for us gamers .

Sammy has provided Sega with the funds to use when necessary..its not like there hasn't been any big budget game productions from sega since the merger...
There been a crackdown since 2012 i agree but before then we were getting solid games. The problem isn't sammy but SOJ. Whether you like it or not there's been too much of a consistent pattern with the manage sammy for that. You can't blame sammy for helping sega west a least compete again by giving the funds available. Why is Sega west at least effectivly allowed to do what they want and make wise decisions while SOJ couldn't or should i say wouldn't and not capable.
Sammy gave Creative Assembly moe funds to expand and create a new studio for this ALIEN ISOLATION game despite having closed down several sega western studios like Sega australia and cutting back at that period. And SOJ has been profitable but they are playing safe well before they needed to. Sammy may be cautious but they are not stopping SOJ doing anything. SOJ is stopping themselves. And its been like that really since the early 2000s.....here hasn't been a glimmer of the type of sega game from SOJ since their xbox launch titles and only a few dotted around since then. I very much doubt sammy is also telling SOJ to not localize any of their titles either. Face it SOJ management needs to change...