Author Topic: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?  (Read 11989 times)

Offline tarpmortar

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2014, 02:07:13 am »
Is the irony lost on you that your position suggests that what's comedic and what isn't, what's well written/told and what isn't are all appropriate limits but somehow all topics are all open season and have no limits? That apparently people who can't appreciate any type of comedy, from the blackest of humor to the most vanilla family friendly stuff, simply don't know comedy and good writing? I would expect otherwise from a position predicated on what's arguably subjective "good craftmanship"

Which, subjectivity isn't bad, but you support absolutely protected freedom of speech, I support criticism of rape jokes and speech

I'm firmly of the opinion that if you think there are topics comedy cannot be written about you don't grasp comedy from the get. I am not speaking to the subjectivity held within the form, I'm speaking to you not understanding the form in the first place. You say you support criticism but that's reductionist based on my past brushes with you, when you say "criticism" you don't mean critique in the artistic sense; you mean criticism in the sense of expressing disapproval and pressure. You support exerting pressure to get a certain type of content, that you dislike, off the market so to speak.

If you supported critique of comedy overall I'd be on board but you support critique, specifically of that content which doesn't align with your narrow world view and explicitly for the purpose of decreasing its prevalence.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 02:09:06 am by tarpmortar »

Offline inthesky

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2014, 03:31:22 am »
I'm firmly of the opinion that if you think there are topics comedy cannot be written about you don't grasp comedy from the get. I am not speaking to the subjectivity held within the form, I'm speaking to you not understanding the form in the first place. You say you support criticism but that's reductionist based on my past brushes with you, when you say "criticism" you don't mean critique in the artistic sense; you mean criticism in the sense of expressing disapproval and pressure. You support exerting pressure to get a certain type of content, that you dislike, off the market so to speak.

If you supported critique of comedy overall I'd be on board but you support critique, specifically of that content which doesn't align with your narrow world view and explicitly for the purpose of decreasing its prevalence.

first, I edited the post you responded to. I don't know if this changes anything but especially since this is different page it's possibly of interest to you. the words that are in your post that belong to me should still be there.

Anyway, you're supporting similar stances that I've responded to in the past. This talk about art is just a variation on absolutely protected freedom of speech, in the form of creative expression. All art can be related to a social or personal aspect, whether from the audience or the author. It's highly presumptuous to think that in art if someone cannot appreciate some unspecified, fundamentally subjective barometer of craftmanship, predicated on accepting all subject matter, they just don't understand art at all. There's painting technique, there's the horizon line, the warm and cool, etc., and then there's just art appreciation - which is possible with or without prior knowledge or intense post-viewing reflection. I criticize craftmanship of games based on mechanics and sometimes social implications. I don't need to accept everything creative at face value. I don't need to accept a piece of art on a personal level to understand it. Especially when at times, personal expression has real consequences that can be reasonably protected against. This is the point of, among other things, certain Triggers, and moderation teams in forums.

I still don't see how you don't grasp the irony of insisting that all expression be absolutely protected while saying social criticism is harmful. They are all forms of speech. If one form of speech can compete with another in a market (i.e. comedians competing for attention) and affect the...competitive viability of something, so to speak, it's effectively no different to criticize any sort of character of a piece of art, whether it be social character or craftmanship character. It is just as natural and fair. Your position about what speech can be protected is internally inconsistent.

Ehh...referring to things as a market didn't sit well with me. Anyway - of course people can make art of whatever they want, and somebody can find something funny. That's the variation in tastes and personality. You can also create elaborate or implied rape jokes, rape jokes that show off "delivery technique." This isn't shocking. The point is, there are certain situations or jokes when moderation is desirable, especially when they presuppose slighting other people. I mean, I don't mind jokes about how I suck at basketball or would lose an arm wrestling contest to a ferret, etc. The point is, not everyone separates art or fiction from reality because the influence of fiction can be either conscious or subconscious, and while checking out all sorts of things is good to learn about what kinds of different things are out there, people often gravitate to art that reflects their tastes. The social criticism that I'm interested in is primarily interested in promoting more positive portrayals of things related to social justice, but if there are certain pieces or forms of speech that are harmful to social justice or are just plain unreasonably insensitive ("Fox rapes on Final Destination!"), so be it. Especially since society can prove itself slow to social change. Some claims in the name of progress or sensitivity I could see as unreasonable, and some are not unreasonable, in any case it is more desirable to have that radar than to operate without it.

By the way, you and I have never talked about art before, I don't know if you're familiar with me critiquing things from a crafting standpoint at all...=P we talked only politics as I recall.
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Offline ROJM

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2014, 07:29:05 am »
And you think feminists are the touchy ones!

Your now present insistence on "MOST" in the above first paragraph wasn't in your OP, which I was responding to. There was barely anything in your OP besides one shirt and the link, and your other comments about how dumb the whole thing is. The whole thrust of my complaint on the OP is that you took arguably the least offensive shirt and offered barely context in what comes across as an attempt to portray the idea that the whole thing was a small-scale conflict. There's a ton left out of this whole story in your OP. I could take care of the whole "bloody feminists and people are oversensitive" thing separately.

The idea with the shirt in the OP anyway doesn't have to much to do with Superman being clean cut IMO. It's that one of the most prominent female superheroes, an Amazon, is being eclipsed by superman Scoring and Doing It Again. The art for that shirt was actually taken from another cover where Wonder Woman had Superman in her lasso. But in this, it's just Superman doing it again and according to the shirt Wonder Woman is just there. To say nothing of "scoring women." If media companies are going to make money off of boring blockbusters and pop culture icons why can't they make money with non sexist material? That's the point of my money-making comment, not the idea that it doesn't matter what's being made - I think it should matter.


Stop trying to defend you're ignorance. The article which i linked USED that image as their opener. So did i. It also had the most complaints. When it really was a harmless T shirt to begin with. And acting that you couldn't even tell the point goes to show how stupid you are when it was obvious to begin with.

And yes it was to do with the fact that Superman was in that Tshirt that generated a lot of complaints. Superman is an iconic character to some..even sacred. People don't like that character going outside of what they think is a flag holder to all things decent in america. Man of Steel got complaints because it wasn't the superman they knew. He was shown to be causing the damage to the city and hardly saving people. So don't give me this people didn't complain about superman crap..where we live in a society where people complain about things from a drop of a hat. And then you add Wonder Woman and you got a lot of trouble on you're hands. As for your other comments about being eclipsed by superman..yes that's what the feminists were complaing about. but it wasn't just about that that was the center of complaints.

Offline MadeManG74

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2014, 07:55:01 am »
And that's quite a sexist comment at the end of your post there! What was so important about what you said that you have to call it "girly men" behavior?
But he said 'Grillie men'.
He meant BBQ enthusiasts. I for one, support this new-found love of grilling!

Offline inthesky

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2014, 09:09:26 am »
But he said 'Grillie men'.
He meant BBQ enthusiasts. I for one, support this new-found love of grilling!

...

I've been had. well played, you two.

=p
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2014, 03:33:51 pm »
inthesky,
if gays can roll around being flamboyant all they want in your opinion, then why can't I roll around with my homosex jokes and "sexist" tshirts?
SEG4GES

Offline tarpmortar

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2014, 06:59:50 pm »
@inthesky, I'm a little funky on stuff from the dentist's office, so excuse any mistakes. Regardless, given our last discussion occurred largely on the basis of you taking an off the cuff, joking remark making light of liberals and then attempting to pseudo-intellectually convert it into a position I seriously held? You can use flowery language, you can write walls of text it doesn't conceal the fact that you and people like you, largely condone criticism solely to exert pressure and decrease the prevalence of a certain type of content you dislike. #cancelcolbert is not an artistic critique of Colbert Report, it's a movement creating pressure to remove content it sees as undesirable, that's very explicit. Much like #gamergate pursuing boycotts against gamasutra is seeking to create pressure to remove content it finds undesirable, that's a consumer right, no doubt about it; in both cases. It's not artistic critique. I didn't support #cancelcolbert but I still supported its right to exist, the right of your "social justice criticism" to exist but I'm going to call a spade a spade.

If you think when somebody is making a joke they are serious, or tacitly supporting something, that represents a severe misunderstanding of comedy in its most basic form. Full stop. Hogan's Heroes was not an endorsement of Nazi POW camps, Jerry Seinfeld joking about the holocaust is not a pro-holocaust position, Alec Baldwin playing with the term rapier and turning it into an ongoing rape joke with Seinfeld is not an endorsement of rape, Arrested Development's use of analrapist for Tobias Funke is not an endorsement of anal rape. The argument is preposterous and reeks of extremist narrative hogwash.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 07:32:37 pm by tarpmortar »

Offline inthesky

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2014, 02:08:14 am »
inthesky,
if gays can roll around being flamboyant all they want in your opinion, then why can't I roll around with my homosex jokes and "sexist" tshirts?

I would suggest it because one of those situations you described doesn't presuppose discrimination on the other. Which is also to say, I don't know what kind of shirts you're talking about, but if they are actually sexist then that's my position

@inthesky, I'm a little funky on stuff from the dentist's office, so excuse any mistakes. Regardless, given our last discussion occurred largely on the basis of you taking an off the cuff, joking remark making light of liberals and then attempting to pseudo-intellectually convert it into a position I seriously held? You can use flowery language, you can write walls of text it doesn't conceal the fact that you and people like you, largely condone criticism solely to exert pressure and decrease the prevalence of a certain type of content you dislike. #cancelcolbert is not an artistic critique of Colbert Report, it's a movement creating pressure to remove content it sees as undesirable, that's very explicit. Much like #gamergate pursuing boycotts against gamasutra is seeking to create pressure to remove content it finds undesirable, that's a consumer right, no doubt about it; in both cases. It's not artistic critique. I didn't support #cancelcolbert but I still supported its right to exist, the right of your "social justice criticism" to exist but I'm going to call a spade a spade.

If you think when somebody is making a joke they are serious, or tacitly supporting something, that represents a severe misunderstanding of comedy in its most basic form. Full stop. Hogan's Heroes was not an endorsement of Nazi POW camps, Jerry Seinfeld joking about the holocaust is not a pro-holocaust position, Alec Baldwin playing with the term rapier and turning it into an ongoing rape joke with Seinfeld is not an endorsement of rape, Arrested Development's use of analrapist for Tobias Funke is not an endorsement of anal rape. The argument is preposterous and reeks of extremist narrative hogwash.

the dentist is whatever, is fine, so don't worry about that.

The liberal joke? We had a talk about liberals apparently being oversensitive and exploring why that view is held, which...incidentally, was the starting point for everything else we talked about. In any case I know the difference between social critique and artistic critique already.

As for my take on "socially bad jokes", I already know a joke about a subject doesn't have to support or condemn any one particular stance on it. That's not my position so I'm not arguing for anything you're suggesting in your hypotheticals. It's possible to make jokes without any personal investment. The suggestion is that they can be insensitive and in certain contexts are harmful or not worth bothering to say, regardless of the teller's feelings/intentions. Like the person who prompted a SWAT team after joking about having Ebola while boarding a plane. I would also extend that to stuff like 4Chan/a random individual's liberal use of the word "fag". Or Louis CK, and his routine about using the word "faggot." And thank you for your positive evaluation of my posts =)
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2014, 06:24:14 am »
Why did the women cross the road?

I don't know, but what is she doing out of the kitchen?
SEG4GES

Offline ROJM

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2014, 06:59:09 am »
LOL!

Offline tarpmortar

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2014, 04:56:30 am »
I've never understood why English is a living, breathing language capable of change to allow for words like gay to be re-appropriated to refer to male homosexuals versus happiness but "retard" and "faggot" cannot be re-appropriated to mean "stupid". Especially as "faggot" was re-appropriated to be derogatory for homosexual men from its original cigarette reference in the first place.

Other than the inherently subjective moral basis of course but logically it's a bit of a contradiction in my eyes. Mind you I usually avoid words like those myself but I don't perceive them to be as offensive as so many others because I do believe that their meaning has genuinely changed for large groups of people out there.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 01:09:40 am by tarpmortar »

Offline crackdude

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2014, 05:39:57 am »
Shut up you gay retarded faggot. Don't be a happy stupid cigarette.

(You are totally right, shit makes no sense)
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Offline MadeManG74

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2014, 08:50:41 am »
British Dictionary definitions for faggot Expand
faggot1
/ˈfæɡət/
noun
1.
a bundle of sticks or twigs, esp when bound together and used as fuel
2.
a bundle of iron bars, esp a box formed by four pieces of wrought iron and filled with scrap to be forged into wrought iron
3.
a ball of chopped meat, usually pork liver, bound with herbs and bread and eaten fried

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot


Definition #3 :o
Now I want a faggot in my mouth! Mmmm!

Offline tarpmortar

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2014, 01:41:20 am »
Also @inthesky I agree with you partially, obviously bomb jokes probably shouldn't be made on planes for example. A plane does not make a comedy venue though, so yes, context DOES apply. As regards professional comedians, I disagree and think CK should continue to use whatever words he likes. He's quite arguably the finest comic alive today and just because some people are offended by his vocabulary choices really means very little.

I think what's annoying about the critique you mention is the self-righteous, moral absolutist stances that often accompany the critiques we're discussing. Many individuals refuse to acknowledge that their critique is subjective, particularly within these arenas (in my anecdotal experience) and state so many of their views as facts. Furthermore, they talk down to those whom choose to dissent, using tactics like dogpiling and such to silence opposition. The only time I've seen critics from a non-ideological background undermine and condescend one another that way in mainstream society was Siskel and Ebert. Their contempt was legendary and I find it telling how commonplace it is within the circles which promote ideologically based criticism.

I fail to understand the opposition to allowing individual people the ability to determine what succeeds and what they like for themselves. It's worked well for so many years and I fail to see the point of pursuing censorship against content one finds offensive. I find a lot of content offensive, I simply choose to ignore it rather than hound the people creating it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 01:06:51 am by tarpmortar »

Offline crackdude

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Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2014, 02:37:40 pm »
Speaking of airplanes,

As an airplane is about to crash, a female passenger jumps up frantically and announces, "If I'm going to die, I want to die feeling like a woman." She removes all her clothing and asks, "Is there someone on this plane who is man enough to make me feel like a woman?" A man stands up, removes his shirt and says, "Here, iron this!".
SEG4GES