New Star Wars trailer...

[Barry the Nomad]

I know what happened with the canon revision. But its strange for the guy to say that. anyway the issue isn't even about Tarkin...i said its not canon you say it is

Can you provide a link to an interview with the author? I'm interested to hear what he said in regards to the writing process. In the case of what you said versus what I said in regards to it being canon, I'll say it again: this is not a case of opinion. The fact is, Tarkin IS canon. As I said before, the argument has shifted into your personal headcanon of it not being canon versus my statement of the fact that Lucasfilm has stated it is official canon. There isn't really much more to be said in that regard, I just wish you'd concede that you are arguing against a fact using personal preference as your counter, which just doesn't fly in this case. Now if we were in the pre-Legends Star Wars universe, we'd have more of a gray area to work with, but in this new canon that just isn't the case. What is and isn't canon is very clear cut now: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_canon_media

I'm with you on that one Barry, I've done it with one my favourite films Terminator 2. I don't care if the sequels said Judgement Day is inevitable, I liked how Terminator 2 ended with the sacrifice of a machine that saved the future of humanity. I'll take the alternate ending as "canon." even though I full well know that the series has now consistently spit out that Judgement Day will always happen.

The great thing about the Terminator franchise, is with the whole time travel thing you can easily latch onto one timeline as your preferred timeline and ignore the rest. For me, I go up to Salvation, but follow both timelines - the one you mentioned and the T3 -> Salvation one. But that Terminator Genisys trailer, ugh. Not so sure I like the direction the series is heading. Sure Salvation wasn't great, but it really didn't change T1 or T2. It was just a story taking place in the future as a prequel to the future events of T1.

[MadeManG74]

On the discussion itself, ROJM brushing off canon because an author wasn't in the know about the new canon (can you link to interviews where this is stated, not that it has sway on Tarkin being canon, just curious) or because Disney now owns LF is getting ridiculous. It's just a childish approach to the whole discussion. Fact is, Kathleen Kennedy and the LF story group made the decision to clean up the canon and shift all but the movies, CG TV shows, and comics and novels starting with Son of Dathomir and A New Dawn respectively to the non-canon Legends designation. This fact cannot be disputed. We are not discussing Mega Drive sales numbers, we're discussing a fictional property where it has been stated time and time again what is canon and what is not.

But the Canon was only changed AFTER the films were at their peak popularity! When it DIDN'T MATTER!

Sega won the Star Wars.
Wait...

Uncle Bob saved us all. The End.

Agreed, T3 was a bit rubbish, never even watched Salvation or the TV series. The thumbs up in the volcano was the ending we all wanted.

Not to mention, new Terminator has a Chinese T-1000.
Chinese Terminators, Black Stormtroopers? Is this the future we all envisaged? (joking, before someone calls me a racist)

[JRcade19]

Finals not started yet at school so why not?

I'm fine with the posts preceding this one, now that we've established what is canon and what constitutes a proper argument using it rather than head canon.

Also agree with Barry, I still have old guilty pleasures of the Legends series in terms of novelizations which I still like to consider events(The Vong can still go burn), but I would never use them in an argument dealing with actual canon when such a condition is specified within the parameter of debate.

[Aki-at]

The great thing about the Terminator franchise, is with the whole time travel thing you can easily latch onto one timeline as your preferred timeline and ignore the rest. For me, I go up to Salvation, but follow both timelines - the one you mentioned and the T3 -> Salvation one. But that Terminator Genisys trailer, ugh. Not so sure I like the direction the series is heading. Sure Salvation wasn't great, but it really didn't change T1 or T2. It was just a story taking place in the future as a prequel to the future events of T1.

I actually think Salvation can be grouped in with T1 and T2 easily, I don't think it mentions anything other than they targeted his mother? John has no recollection about the events of Terminator 2 as far as I know?

So possibly the events of Terminator 1 happened but the events of Terminator 2 didn't happen yet... Until a further point in the Salvation timeline that causes John to send the second Terminator to protect him as a child that finally erases the Salvation timeline... Yeah time travel stories are wacky and sometimes make no sense but that would have been one way to try and fit Salvation's storyline in with the established lore of T1 and T2 whilst pretending T3 never happened.

It's a shame though that the Terminator series really has forgotten what it was about, an unstoppable killing machine and now seems to be happy about generic action scenes.

[MadeManG74]

^Wait, isn't Salvation the movie during the war?

[Barry the Nomad]

There are several obscure aspects of Star Wars that I simply cannot see them exploring again that I would not be shocked if down the road they make Legends material canon. Like the Ewok movies, for example. Little happens in them that steps on the toes of the films, even Wicket speaking basic pre-ROTJ was explained away as the Towani family actually speaking a different language which Wicket learned, but it was english for the sake of the viewers. Thus, when he meets Leia he is hearing english or basic for the first time. I just can't see them doing anything that would make the Ewok movies non-canon. Same goes for the Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina book. Like I can't imagine Ponda Baba will be revisited and his backstory will be rewritten. So into my headcanon those go!

I actually think Salvation can be grouped in with T1 and T2 easily, I don't think it mentions anything other than they targeted his mother? John has no recollection about the events of Terminator 2 as far as I know?So possibly the events of Terminator 1 happened but the events of Terminator 2 didn't happen yet... Until a further point in the Salvation timeline that causes John to send the second Terminator to protect him as a child that finally erases the Salvation timeline... Yeah time travel stories are wacky and sometimes make no sense but that would have been one way to try and fit Salvation's storyline in with the established lore of T1 and T2 whilst pretending T3 never happened.It's a shame though that the Terminator series really has forgotten what it was about, an unstoppable killing machine and now seems to be happy about generic action scenes.

Wouldn't future John instantly know if it worked or not the moment Kyle went back in time? T1's goal was to protect Sarah, and since John still exists the moment he sent Kyle back he knows it worked out - though he does not know that Kyle is his father. Kyle being sent back was a reaction to learning that a Terminator was to be sent back.

[Aki-at]

^Wait, isn't Salvation the movie during the war?

Yeah it is but it's set after the events of Terminator 3, so it's technically not the war we all wanted to see (The one set in either the Terminator 1 or Terminator 2 timeline.) but close enough. Still found it weird John didn't act on that machines can learn and detach themselves from Skynet's programming which could make them good allies for the Resistance.

Wouldn't future John instantly know if it worked or not the moment Kyle went back in time? T1's goal was to protect Sarah, and since John still exists the moment he sent Kyle back he knows it worked out - though he does not know that Kyle is his father. Kyle being sent back was a reaction to learning that a Terminator was to be sent back.

Well we don't know how time exactly works in Terminator, does it splinter off and create a new timeline? (According to the trailer for Genisys, it does.) or does it just reset and causes the changes in time effect the whole timeline (SPOILER FOR GENISYS: According to the leaked script, yes it does.) when one film has both theories, it's hard to say how it actually works.

Besides even if future John knows that sending Kyle back in time worked, If we followed that timeline Judgement Day still occured but that can't be because in the timeline of the movies, the second time Arnold was sent back he managed to stop Judgement Day. So from the looks of things in Cameron's original films, time only changes when someone actually goes back in time and changes the whole timeline, there is always a maximum present until it is changed and... Well, I'll let the Doctor explain;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw

[ROJM]

I actually think Salvation can be grouped in with T1 and T2 easily, I don't think it mentions anything other than they targeted his mother? John has no recollection about the events of Terminator 2 as far as I know?

So possibly the events of Terminator 1 happened but the events of Terminator 2 didn't happen yet... Until a further point in the Salvation timeline that causes John to send the second Terminator to protect him as a child that finally erases the Salvation timeline... Yeah time travel stories are wacky and sometimes make no sense but that would have been one way to try and fit Salvation's storyline in with the established lore of T1 and T2 whilst pretending T3 never happened.

It's a shame though that the Terminator series really has forgotten what it was about, an unstoppable killing machine and now seems to be happy about generic action scenes.

How can it?..History changed when T3 came out..as judgement day...happened at a further date..so the events of the war that was depicted in T1 and T2...happened at a later date than originally took place. So i can't see how it would fit. And now they're changing it again...

[ROJM]

There are several obscure aspects of Star Wars that I simply cannot see them
exploring again that I would not be shocked if down the road they make Legends
material canon. Like the Ewok movies, for example. Little happens in them that
steps on the toes of the films, even Wicket speaking basic pre-ROTJ was
explained away as the Towani family actually speaking a different language which
Wicket learned, but it was english for the sake of the viewers. Thus, when he
meets Leia he is hearing english or basic for the first time. I just can't see
them doing anything that would make the Ewok movies non-canon. Same goes for the
Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina book. Like I can't imagine Ponda Baba will be
revisited and his backstory will be rewritten. So into my headcanon those
go!

Sign...if we were talking about minor incidents you'd have a point. The problem is were talking about something major and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The problem remains the same..mathmatically a galaxy is quite big..with our own solor system being part of over 200 billion stars. Which either supports several worlds/systems. So a million or billion clone troopers would simply not be enough which is why i have said they must have mass produced them during the war so the emperor could acheive his aim. Then we are asked to beleive that these clone troppers died and the empire could easily replace them by recruiting stormtroopers into the fray? That is something i don't think would have even be possible especially since stormtroopers (so far) has been presented as human/humanoid. Unless there's more humans atround in the galaxy..i can't beleive that they would get the same number of replacements for the clones that they must have had when the empire took over. The Tarkin issue is just a side thing. This however cannot be dismissed no matter how much spin on it the result is still the same.  There is no way in hell the empire would have been able to replace mass produced clones with normal people. Its obvious that maths isn't the school kids forte...tata...

[MadeManG74]

Sign...if we were talking about minor incidents you'd have a point. The problem is were talking about something major and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The problem remains the same..mathmatically a galaxy is quite big..with our own solor system being part of over 200 billion stars. Which either supports several worlds/systems. So a million or billion clone troopers would simply not be enough which is why i have said they must have mass produced them during the war so the emperor could acheive his aim. Then we are asked to beleive that these clone troppers died and the empire could easily replace them by recruiting stormtroopers into the fray? That is something i don't think would have even be possible especially since stormtroopers (so far) has been presented as human/humanoid. Unless there's more humans atround in the galaxy..i can't beleive that they would get the same number of replacements for the clones that they must have had when the empire took over. The Tarkin issue is just a side thing. This however cannot be dismissed no matter how much spin on it the result is still the same.  There is no way in hell the empire would have been able to replace mass produced clones with normal people. Its obvious that maths isn't the school kids forte...tata...

But how many planets actually sustain life?

[JRcade19]

Aaaaand we're back to the head canon again.

[MadeManG74]

DID SOMEONE SAY HEAD CANNON!?

[JRcade19]

Iloveyoupatrick.png

[ROJM]

But how many planets actually sustain life?

Good question..but here's what we know...

The exact number of clone troopers in the Grand Army of the Republic is a
point of some contention. The numbers given, both in the films and the Expanded
Universe, seem far too small for a huge, galactic conflict like the Clone
Wars.

Clone Trooper Numbers Compared

In Episode II: Attack of the
Clones, Lama Su tells Obi-Wan Kenobi that the Kaminoans have created 200,000
"units," with a million more on the way. "Units" is taken to mean individual
clone troopers by both the characters and the writers of the Expanded Universe.
According to Karen Traviss' novel Republic Commando: Triple Zero, the size of
the clone army has increased to "three million men" by the next year -- a figure
repeated in several other sources.



That may sound like a large
number, especially considering how fast the additional clone troopers were
produced, but let's put it in perspective. At the beginning of the Clone Wars,
the Republic contained over one million planets. That's not much more than three
clone troopers per planet. For a real-world comparison, consider that the size
of the United States military alone during World War II was 16
million.

Furthermore, the population of Coruscant alone, at the end of
the Clone Wars, was somewhere between one and three trillion. Whereas the 16
million Americans who served in the armed forces during World War II made up
about 12 percent of the United States population, the Grand Army of the Republic
was between 0.0001 and 0.0003 percent the size of the population of
Coruscant.

Further Problems

The RPG supplement The Clone Wars
Campaign Guide gives the size of the Grand Army of the Republic as the rather
vague "3,000,000+ troopers plus support personnel." This might be more generous
-- if the book didn't go on to give the number of droids in the Separatist army
as one quadrillion.

That is to say, there are 300 million droids for
every one clone trooper. This ratio greatly dwarfs even the largest of underdog
victories in world history. Even considering the general incompetence of the
droid army, it seems unlikely that the clones could fight a three-year war
without sustaining massive casualties, except that the plot demands it.

So to say there isn't a flaw when there clearly is one is ridiculous. Furthermore take out the expanded universe stuff you STILL have the problem of size and not possibly mathematically covering that scope. The problem remains the same. Either they DID match their number which they would have to or they didn't. They created a big plot black hole..and i'm not the only one who is saying it or noticed it.

[MadeManG74]

Are Storm-Troopers/Clones the only military they have though? Do they just draft any local planet's own military seperately and the Storm/Clones are just the 'Imperial' troops?

Kind of like Marines as opposed to the entire armed forces of the US?