Majima's Yakuza has a website with an image.

[Sega Uranus]

Metal Gear is one of the most milked franchises in the history of gaming... I do not know how anyone can say Yakuza is anywhere close. Different playstyles and designs are the biggest reason to prove it is, meanwhile Yakuza just comes in one flavor. One glorious, delicious ass kicking flavor.

[Suzuki Yu]

at least any main series in Metal Gear will have no less than 3 years in making .
while Yakuza's main series is milked over yearly updates .
big differences here .

in RGG games they are using the same assist again and again . and while there is some changes and new ideas it's still doesn't feel fresh enough  .

but i have to be honest , the team is really doing impressive work updating RGG every year ... but that will never be good for the long term .
in this situation all i can hope for is that the team was considering a multi-year RGG in production simultaneously with the past and current projects . and this could be the next project , according to Nagoshi's last interview he said ""Yakuza must evolve. To evolve, some things must be broken. A Yakuza that is being broken is under construction and thus cannot be released. This probably saddens the fans, so as we break things, we make new things." ,,,, so we will see .

[Aki-at]

at least any main series in Metal Gear will have no less than 3 years in making .
while Yakuza's main series is milked over yearly updates .
big differences here .

That was not the point though. The point was Metal Gear Solid is also being milked, by coming out with what Pao said, neither Mario nor Sonic are milked series, since both have games that have more than three years in the making and usually share little major assists. By what has just been said, Mario is the least milked series out of the lot, but that is surely not the case.

It's not about the difference in milking; it is the definition itself means Metal Gear Solid is also a milked series as, like Yakuza, Konami use MGS as a financial strong point, they even have the brand in their reports as a seperate genre.

As for additions to the series, I'll wait on it. So far I've played all five in the series and outside of Kenzan! I've find each to have it's own certain charm and strength that carry on the game on. I suppose people could get tired of it, but storyline is probably the biggest draw in Yakuza. If I wanted a game with a superb combat engine, I'd be playing Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta, or if I wanted an adventure mode, Zelda or God of War, but rather Yakuza just does enjoyable and adds a fantastic storyline which keeps the game together. It's basically an RPG truly, nothing outside of the plot has been top draw, perhaps with the exception to attention to detail.

I can see your point about wanting new towns, but that really depends on which characters are in the game. It has become like a tv serial now, and the primary location is Tokyo's red light district, unfortunately for some.

Obviously I  would like to see SEGA take their time right now, but the current climate does not give them the space to do that...

[MadeManG74]

How would you guys feel about another Team taking on Yakuza in a manner like Call of Duty is handled? Where Infinity Ward would make a game every 2 years and Treyarch would make one every two years? It seemed to work out well with the COD series coming out at a regular rate and the games were mostly very good as well (COD4, WaW and MW2 for example were all recieved and sold very well).

I'm not sure who would take on Yakuza at Sega though, just keep it very fucking far away from Sonic Team obviously.

[Aki-at]

How would you guys feel about another Team taking on Yakuza in a manner like Call of Duty is handled? Where Infinity Ward would make a game every 2 years and Treyarch would make one every two years? It seemed to work out well with the COD series coming out at a regular rate and the games were mostly very good as well (COD4, WaW and MW2 for example were all recieved and sold very well).

I'm not sure who would take on Yakuza at Sega though, just keep it very fucking far away from Sonic Team obviously.

I think that would be a good idea, but considering Nagoshi now has two teams making two seperate Yakuza games, well perhaps SEGA will start to make Yakuza games like that.

I don't see a problem as long as the team is not Sonic Team.

[Team Andromeda]

A game does not need to be a multimillion seller to be a hit or make money,

These days it does, unless its a well established 3rd party game in the west , or Dragon Quest in Japan . SEGA Japan consumer teams have been bleeding money, and have only posted profits like 2 to 3 times in the last 10 years .

My point was that the Pro Evolution series has sold less with each release for quite some time now, and that many many of their franchises have been in a slump for years,

Not really true.  Also what really hurt the series is how poor its been on the Next Gen system , with lazy updates, poor online modes, and very poor tech and animation .  Its seems that Konami want to fight back now , either way Pro Evo is still a multi million selling brand, Winning Eleven sells Hundreds of thousands of copies in Japan alone .

SEGA has a much better business structure and it is a proven fact, just look at the numbers!

Frogger ?, That died out in the 80's .

I look at the simple facts that Konami have more multi million selling IP and the consumer teams post profits.

2K is one of the most well known videogame companies in the world known for losing money, even BioShock 2

Yes I made that point on SEGA nerds, maybe ever on here too .  Though I'm sure 2K were able to post a profit this year . Risks like BoarderLands and Red Dead have paid off, and Bioshock II made a profit, even if it was a modest one.

Red Dead Redemption also runs poorly on the PlayStation 3, and it is not really fair to bring Mafia II into the discussion as it is not out yet and might not run well on a platform either.

What is this Eurogamer ?.

Its runs well enough on the PS3 and on the 360 is a remarkable technical achievement, for a open world game. Mafia II not saying the game will be any good, but the farcical motion capture looks set to bring in and set new standards . Yet again 2K investing and taking risks in new tech.

Lost Planet 2 is a lost cause, the price is already being lowered everywhere already.

It was sold at a low retail price to begin with . What is sold so far over 300,000 copies . I bet it will push over a million in the end . Though I will agree the sales are poor. At least Capcom would have learned a lot with Online Co-Op and now have Framework II tech , which imo is the best 3rd party multi platform engine there is .

SEGA wanted Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing to be bigger, yes, but this is just my point. It was made by a third party with weak tech on multiple platforms and was most certainly not in development for three years.

You'll be surprised it was in development for over 2 and half years . I also don't think the tech was that weak, it looked really good on the DS. My trouble with it was why it was even handled out of house, and not given to AM#2 to develope. SEGA Japan still in my eye are the best at making racers, for the most part anyway (not doubt we'll bring up Sonic)

You do not need 2-3 years to make a really outstanding game. Some of what I consider the best games of all time were developed in around a years time.

You do if you want to improve the tech and really move the game forward. I can't think of any Major Game epic , that's been developed in under a year. That knocked my socks off this generation GFX and gameplay wise.

So did Final Fantasy XIII on it's debut month in Japan, that does not change the fact the Japanese video game industry revenue is in decline

The clue is with 13 in the Title . FF is an long established and million selling IP , Kind of like Madden in USA. Going to selling over a million not matter what. RedDead is a new IP (or a passing sequel at best)

Huge difference .

Also how many copies did FF 13 sell on the 360 ?. Quite a lot wasn't it . That's what being Multi Platform can do (though I'm sure you'll bring up FF 14 )

The game that sold the most has also yet to make it's money back if we were going just by American sales, and that's believing all $60 per unit goes to TakeTwo

Well its topping the charts over here too . Its going to go through the 5 million barrier easy. Say to say it's going to make its money back, if it hasn't already.

For SEGA to pour that amount of money in a game they need to either completely stop in the arcade development, or cease the development of Bayonetta, Yakuza 4,

Let's not be Drama Queens here , we don't know the final costs of Red Dead . Just like we really don't know the true cost of each Yakuza game . We do now that Kenzan cost more to make than Yakuza , with Nagoshi-san  saying  it was the biggest game and biggest budget he's ever worked on. So That's a Budget of over $25 Million .

So we can assume that each Yakuza game is costing SEGA over $20 million . Remind me again how many Yakuza games SEGA developed or is developing this generation? . There's your 80 to 100 million right there .
Also I've mad the point here and on SEGA nerds, that SEGA funding Platinum games is taking money away form it's own Teams . In-House Teams that really need to start making their own WW games, and learn what its takes. Get their Pipe lines up to Next Gen standards.

urthermore, biggest risk? Alan Wake took Remedy close to six years to develop and they've come out and said "We've bet our farm on it to be a massive success" the game has easily missed the target set by it within Remedy, the same with Blur

Remedy are a tiny team . Alan Wake would have cost nothing like that of Read Dead to produce. Blur was a risk , but again in cost terms it would be nothing to that of Read Dead.

And then there is Lost Planet 2, a game which has had it's sales targets scaled back twice and even still is looking likely to be another dud for Capcom in the line of Bionic Commando, Dark Void and Darkside Chronicles.

Oh Please, Scraping the barrel if we need to bring in the likes of Dark Void or Chronicles into it . I think they sold so poor , more to do with the fact that they were crap, than anything to do with a so-called recession (more so when people are cuing in the streets to for the latest Apple) . In cost terms it would be low to Capcom.
I will agree that so far LP II isn't a great seller.

Games sales in one of the area's that still can perform well in a Recession. PS2 sold over a million at Launch in Japan , even though Japan was in one of its worst recessions ever. 16bit and 8 bit sales weathered the 80's and 90's recessions (and inthe UK the 90's was a crippling recession) . There's still plenty of money around.

Spending the sort of cash we've seen thrown about just not a good idea anymore.

It what you spend it on .

This generation you really need to be Multi Platform, Online and making games with the West in mind . Now we can all post we don't like it, but that what most 3rd parties need to do. SOJ isn't , that is a problem

some of SEGA's best games are sequels without any real innovation.

I agree, but that's been lost now. I don't mind sequels in fact I love them . But to me Yakuza is now starting to feel the same , very much like Tomb Raider .

Konamis Metal Gear Soild is just as milked if not more so then Yakuza in recent years

Simply not true . We've had 2 MGS games on the PS2 (same as Yakuza) we've had one major game on the PS3, yet we've had 2 Yakuza's and Kenzan . The development time between, each MGS (major console release) is vastly different to Yakuza's yearly development time line.

How would you guys feel about another Team taking on Yakuza in a manner like Call of Duty is handled? Where Infinity Ward would make a game every 2 years and Treyarch would make one every two years? It seemed to work out well with the COD series coming out at a regular rate and the games were mostly very good as well (COD4, WaW and MW2 for example were all recieved and sold very well).

I'm not sure who would take on Yakuza at Sega though, just keep it very fucking far away from Sonic Team obviously.

Well its what Ubisoft and Acti had to do, and in game terms the likes of SplinterCell and COD are much simpler to make.  I say give the team a 2 to 3 year development time , so they can really go to town . Ubi are getting just as bad of late though, they're milking Assassin's Creed of late, and that's a series that's going to do with way of POP imo .


Sonic Team like I said before, Now get it and will surprise many over the next couple of years

[Pao]

Nope.
The differences and changes between each main MGS game is big, unlike Yakuza (which still use same environmental assets and animations, among other stuff).

Its not milking when there is only 4 main games from more than 11 years, especially when there are big changes each game.

No, I think you don't exactly understand what milking means.

For example, Mario's main games have been Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy and Galaxy 2 in a span of 12 years. Sonic the Hedgehog has had Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 and Sonic Unleashed as his main games in 9 years. Under Mario's instence, are you claiming that series is less milked then Metal Gear Solid and Sonic is only slightly more milked? Even though each title is radically different from the last? We all believe Mario is one of the milked franchises in the industry, but with what your saying, it appearently is not.

Just because the main games are spaced apart and radically different does not mean a series is not milked. Just like Yakuza, Konami milk as much as they can out of each Metal Gear title. Not saying the Metal Gear series is terrible or anything, but Konami certainly use it instead of a new title to generate as much income as possible.

I believe I understood the definition of Milking differently from your understanding.
I think Milking is when a company continues on releasing sequels for their successful series in a short periods of time and with little changes (Yakuza, CoD, Dynasty Warriors) to make the most out of their franchise. The company does not only milk the name, but even the gameplay elements remain unchanged and kept repeated each sequel, no radical changes.

Games like  MGS and FF, while having a lot of titles in the series, are not released yearly like Yakuza, and each one got big and radical changes, its true that the company also wants to make the most out of the series, but not as frequent as those games like CoD and Yakuza.

Imagine two Cows:

One is being milked every day for 1 month. (CoD, Yakuza, etc..)
And the other is being milked every week for 6 months. (MGS, FF, etc..)
Just an inaccurate example, but which Cow do you think got its Milk dried?  

This is what I believe Milking is, it might be different than what you think it is though.

[Aki-at]

I believe I understood the definition of Milking differently from your understanding.
I think Milking is when a company continues on releasing sequels for their successful series in a short periods of time and with little changes (Yakuza, CoD, Dynasty Warriors) to make the most out of their franchise. The company does not only milk the name, but even the gameplay elements remain unchanged and kept repeated each sequel, no radical changes.

Games like MGS and FF, while having a lot of titles in the series, are not released yearly like Yakuza, and each one got big and radical changes, its true that the company also wants to make the most out of the series, but not as frequent as those games like CoD and Yakuza.

Imagine two Cows:

One is being milked every day for 1 month. (CoD, Yakuza, etc..)
And the other is being milked every week for 6 months. (MGS, FF, etc..)
Just an inaccurate example, but which Cow do you think got its Milk dried?

This is what I believe Milking is, it might be different than what you think it is though.

As I've said before and will say again...

You've basically said Sonic and Mario are not milked franchises. In particular, Mario is less milked than Metal Gear Solid, do you believe that assessment?

Also Final Fantasy's radical changes have been regressive this generation... But just because it's main games are released every so often... Even though per year there has been as much as 4 Final Fantasy games per year, what is your take on that?

[Aki-at]

The clue is with 13 in the Title . FF is an long established and million selling IP , Kind of like Madden in USA. Going to selling over a million not matter what. RedDead is a new IP (or a passing sequel at best)

Huge difference .

God Eater sold over half a million in February in Japan. Again, the top position in a chart does not matter, it is the entire state of the chart that matters.

Also how many copies did FF 13 sell on the 360 ?. Quite a lot wasn't it . That's what being Multi Platform can do (though I'm sure you'll bring up FF 14 )

Yes, but Final Fantasy XIII is an established series in the West and still manages to get great sales overseas. Whilst if the game was primary developed for Japan, it would be released with a core Japanese focus. There is a reason why SEGA made/wanted a port for Bayonetta and Sonic Unleashed.

Well its topping the charts over here too . Its going to go through the 5 million barrier easy. Say to say it's going to make its money back, if it hasn't already.

I did not say it will not, but the fact is Take Two has spent a colossal amount of money that they would need excellent cash flow to keep themselves going. Introducing such a large scale production into SEGA's current plans without sacrificing several games or departments is just not possible.

Let's not be Drama Queens here , we don't know the final costs of Red Dead .

Metal Gear Sold 4 cost $70 million to make and an excess of $100 million was spent on Grand Theft Auto 4, easily it falls in between there.

Just like we really don't know the true cost of each Yakuza game . We do now that Kenzan cost more to make than Yakuza , with Nagoshi-san  saying  it was the biggest game and biggest budget he's ever worked on. So That's a Budget of over $25 Million .

It's easy to assume something like Kenzan cost about $20 - $25 million to develop, the fact Yakuza 1 and 2 combined took SEGA $20 million to make. Likewise, it's easy to also assume that Yakuza 3's budget was $20 - $25 million.

So we can assume that each Yakuza game is costing SEGA over $20 million . Remind me again how many Yakuza games SEGA developed or is developing this generation? . There's your 80 to 100 million right there .

Or we can cut out the terrible fat that is Sonic Team games and give that money for good games. Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic and the Black Knight and Sonic Chronicles all performed poorly, and Sonic Rush Adventure, Phantasy Star Universe, Phantasy Star Zero and Sonic Rivals 2 all missed their targets.

But that is not the point, we have to wait potentially upto three years and get 4 - 5 games less, SEGA is just not structured to be able to pour that amount of money, they need to get the money back sooner rather than later. Sacrifice either Sonic games, Yakuza games, arcade games et all and you are slowly eating into their cash flow that is already restrictive for SEGA thanks to Sonic not selling what he use to.

Also I've mad the point here and on SEGA nerds, that SEGA funding Platinum games is taking money away form it's own Teams . In-House Teams that really need to start making their own WW games, and learn what its takes. Get their Pipe lines up to Next Gen standards.

Yes and if they've made money through Platinum Games then it is a good investment. So far two hits and one failure is looking good so far. This is purely opinion and I am sure people like that SEGA helped fund Bayonetta on this forum.

Remedy are a tiny team . Alan Wake would have cost nothing like that of Read Dead to produce.

Yes it would not have cost as much, but the risk is relatively the same as it could very well make Remedy close up shop, or at least have a rocky few years.

Blur was a risk , but again in cost terms it would be nothing to that of Read Dead.

And again, relative, Activision could clear out Bizarre Creations just to save money in the end.

Oh Please, Scraping the barrel if we need to bring in the likes of Dark Void or Chronicles into it . I think they sold so poor , more to do with the fact that they were crap, than anything to do with a so-called recession.

I did not say the recession caused low sales in them, just Capcom has now had a line of duds, you can add Ghost Trick to that to, which at 50,000 after a few weeks, is already struggling to break past it's original 100,000 shipment.

(more so when people are cuing in the streets to for the latest Apple) .

An indication of nothing, as I said, just pointing out one example does not reflect the whole state of the industry.

In cost terms it would be low to Capcom.

And because it was low costs, Capcom did not ensure millions of dollars in losses. Infact even with three terribly selling games, they still managed a profit,

Games sales in one of the area's that still can perform well in a Recession. PS2 sold over a million at Launch in Japan , even though Japan was in one of its worst recessions ever. 16bit and 8 bit sales weathered the 80's and 90's recessions (and inthe UK the 90's was a crippling recession) . There's still plenty of money around.

Game sales are down in the United Kingdom, that is despite the fact we've had one of our busiest spring periods in recent history. The same applies to America and Japan. The recession is biting away at industry revenues.

We are looking to the past, but production of a video game cost much less, infact you could make games with three guys in a garage back then, that's just not the case anymore. The market is not expanding for games to cost what they do, games are costing over $70 million to make, despite the PS3 and 360 hardly combining to outsell either the PS2 last generation or the Wii this generation.

This generation you really need to be Multi Platform, Online and making games with the West in mind . Now we can all post we don't like it, but that what most 3rd parties need to do. SOJ isn't , that is a problem .

No, what we all do not like was the truth that Nintendo revealed in and now is making huge profits the likes the industry has never seen. Cheap games with effective marketing with a large userbase. They are the most successful developer this generation after seemingly looking like they would end up like SEGA, they didn't and now they are the top dog of the industry. To survive this generation, more people should have been backing the Wii or DS, unfortunately they didn't and the door is slowly closing for them.

Several teams have gone bankrupt and bust or close to it supporting either the Playstation 3 or the Xbox360, very little have who end up supporting the Wii or the DS.

I agree, but that's been lost now. I don't mind sequels in fact I love them . But to me Yakuza is now starting to feel the same , very much like Tomb Raider .

As I said, Yakuza to me is more like a television series with unique characters that just make the game standout because of that.

[Orta]

I've been reading a lot about Red Dead Redemption. Do you really believe the game was that expensive? Be reasonable, the technology was already made and paid for and that alone is a big chunk (if not the largest) of the budget. I call it bullshit, the game didn't cost nowhere near $100 million (or whatever Take 2 claims).

[Aki-at]

I've been reading a lot about Red Dead Redemption. Do you really believe the game was that expensive? Be reasonable, the technology was already made and paid for and that alone is a big chunk (if not the largest) of the budget. I call it bullshit, the game didn't cost nowhere near $100 million (or whatever Take 2 claims).

Red Dead Redemption's map is about twice the size of San Andres. I would imagine the majority of the budget went to catering towards the map than anything else since most of the engine was done beforehand on GTAIV.

Either way, what would you say Red Dead Redemption cost?

[Orta]

Red Dead Redemption doesn't exactly have any massive cities in it I suppose? Most of the map is... desert? I don't know if there is any licensed media in the game, I would say between $40 and $50 million. Probably less. $100 million just feels absurd for a game that uses existing technology.

[Aki-at]

Red Dead Redemption doesn't exactly have any massive cities in it I suppose? Most of the map is... desert? I don't know if there is any licensed media in the game, I would say between $40 and $50 million. Probably less. $100 million just feels absurd for a game that uses existing technology.

I'd like to point out it has very nicely designed deserts... !

How tasty.

Anyway it has a bunch of areas and nothing really does feel like big empty spaces, but I will go with your assessment then.

[MadeManG74]

Red Dead Redemption is a staggering game in terms of scope and detail, I have no doubt it would have cost a LOT.

[Aki-at]

Red Dead Redemption is a staggering game in terms of scope and detail, I have no doubt it would have cost a LOT.

Yeah from what I've seen and play, it certainly does not give me the vibe that it was cheap at all. The world really does feel one of the most detailed...