Shining Series

[Skateboard]

I’m new to this forum, so first of all - Hi to everybody!

The reason why I registered are the comments from Aki-at about the Shining series at the recent Shining Hearts article . So here are my questions:

1. I once started a topic at SFC regarding the sales figures of Shining games, because I wanted to compare the titles where the Takahashi brothers were involved with the post-Camelot games. Since nobody had sales figures at SFC I had to search the net and was not pleased with the result I got. I’m surprised about the figures you posted and would like to adopt them with their original source, if that’s ok? Do you even have more figures about the series?

Here is the topic (BTW I am not a native speaker):
http://forums.shiningforcecentral.com/i ... =14778&hl=

2. I’m even more surprised about the statement: “...SEGA have asked Camelot a few times to develop a new Shining game for them, alas to no success”, as it is contrary to what I had thought and I think it is widely believed by the Shining fans that SEGA are the ones hindering a new Camelot title, while Camelot still would like to make them. For my part I don’t know what to think... Creditable sources on this topic are rare or non existence… However, there was this interview with Camelot, which is from 2007, if I remember correctly:

Hiroyuki Takahashi says: “There are also many requests to make Shining Force III. At one stage we got a petition with many signatures to make a new Shining Force game. This was sent to Sega, Nintendo and Camelot. There are a lot of people that want us to make that game as well. We don’t know what form it would take, but we want to answer the requests of the fans.”

So when did SEGA ask Camelot? And how often?

[CrazyT]

Hello and welcome to the forums Skateboard. I don't really have answers to any of your questions. I just wanted to say that you made the right choice in joining this awesome forum!!

Hope you'll have a great time.

Just to say something on topic. It's sad to see the direction they have taken with the shining series. I was a big fan of the early 3 shining force series and the other shining games on the saturn. The market just ain't that big for their existance sadly. I do believe if they ever did make a shining force 4, they would have to put a lot of thought into what they could do to make it apeal to more gamers. Kind of like how valkyria chronicles brought the SRPG genre in a whole new style.

I think they would have to do more than just a new shining force with updated visuals.

[Aki-at]

For sales figures, see;

http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/2 ... a-rar.html - Famitsu sales

Sales for the Mega Drive are not available, but considering the lacklustre sale of the console itself. I doubt very much was sold. Please completely ignore VGChartz sales, they are not reliable and make up information majority of the time.

As for SEGA asking, it's information I've gather from Japanese fans, such as Storm and I believe that, in particular Shining Soul, which used a great deal of original people, that SEGA tried it and still wanted to go down that route until they dropped it in the end.

[Sega Uranus]

As far as I know, Shining games now are more profitable in Japan than they ever were and have much lower budgets to boot, why would they want to change this format? They also make a good bit selling the models of the characters too.

The biggest reason SEGA wants to try to get back with Camelot or just try making sRPGs again is because they were regarded much more highly, and the fans strongly prefer the original series.

I used to consider the Shining series one of SEGA's best ever and with more potential than almost all of them - Now I have kind of gotten over how they will never be like that ever again. I have moved on. It is not that bad of a fate, at least the Golden Sun games exist.

[Team Andromeda]

I wouldn't hold your breath on SEGA working with Camelot every again. I seen a interview with the head of Camelot in Games TM detailing how they were treated by SEGA at the end of the Saturn, it wasn't good reading (late payments, no help with R&D and poor ) basically Camelot lost money making the last couple of Saturn games,  It when on to say how Camelot was personally upset that on the unveiling of Dreamcast in Japan ,  Camelot wasn't invited as guests at all, unlike many 1st and 3rd party partners that did well on the Saturn.

In Camelot owns words, that day was the day they knew they'll never work with SEGA again.

[Skateboard]

Thanks for your answers and especially Aki-at for the sales figures. The extremely poor sales of the Shining series during the Saturn era in Japan make things more clearly for me now. I always considered the bad / dying Saturn (sales) and the tiny market for strategic games in the EU/US to be the reason, but with sales figures like that in Japan it is even more understandable. It’s too bad there are no figures for the MD, MCD or GG available, as this would have given me an idea of what a “success”, as Hiroyuki Takahashi is cited here[1], regarding sales on the MD was and how the series actually evolved (up or down) over time.
My guess would be that sales of the Shining series were always quite low/average.

In general, I understand both sides. SEGA having to deal with bad sales like this on top of its overall way down. And Hiroyuki Takahashi who seems to be an idealistic game designer who had to deal with minimum budget and a “chaotic” Sega company which was on the move.

Time has passed, but that doesn’t mean I stopped liking SRPGs. For me there is still some hope for another Shining game made by Camelot and that’s why I can only invite those who care to take part of the current SOS-Campaign at SFC, as I do. The plus side on the current situation is that a new Shining title from Camelot wouldn’t be bound to a SEGA console with the smaller market and Camelot is also better known nowadays.  

@CrazyTails: Thanks for the warm welcome. For me console gaming stopped with the death of the DC. And I still haven’t bought a new console afterwards, so I can’t really comment on the new Shining titles (most of them didn’t even come to the EU anyway). I too believe that they would have to overhaul and improve a new tactical Shining Force from its “old” engine. Especially a better AI and a faster game play would be nice (SF3’s flaws for me), but I am totally open for a new experience. I love VC2 (can’t play VC1 for obvious reasons) very much and have to agree. BTW I have seen people suggest the usage of its engine for a new SF title. As VC2’s game play lives from ranged (counter) attacks and to capture the flags I am not convinced right now, but it might be a nice subject to discuss.

@Aki-at: Thanks again for the figures. Is this your work or does this file come directly from Famitsu? And am I allowed to give this file to others? Also too bad Shining Soul 2 failed so hard, but I guess it was because of Shining Soul’s flaws?

@Sega Uranus: Well, Camelot has been quite successful after they left SEGA. So if SEGA would get them on board again, they could profit from Camelot’s fame now. In the end, it seems mostly personal opinions/preferences and some interpretations of interviews what builds the information about the relation between SEGA and Camelot. It could eventually be really bad and they never work together again. As much as I would like to like Golden Sun it doesn’t look like to comfort me. It seems too childish to me and the community/audience seem to be children/teens. Maybe someday I will feel like giving it a chance.

@Team Andromeda: Which magazine was that in? Could you please give me a link? If you base your assertions on the interview I have linked below, I would have to contradict in most points.

[1] http://www.gamestm.co.uk/retro/behind-t ... ing-force/

[Team Andromeda]

Team Andromeda: Which magazine was that in? Could you please give me a link? If you base your assertions on the interview I have linked below, I would have to contradict in most points.

Its from the GamesTm Mag you linked, but in the full Magazine edition, there is more, and details how Camlot felt rejected when they weren't invited has guests on the DC unveiling, unlike other major 3rd/1st Party supporters and how then and then they knew the days working for SEGA were numbered

SEGA treated Camelot like shit. So I'm not about to get my hopes at all, more so with the current SEGA.

[Sega Uranus]

@Skateboard

Golden Sun is not childish at all really, no more than the majority of the other Shining games. You really should check it out!

The best advice I have probably given anyone ever is if you ever want to get into any game franchise that has been around for years, completely ignore what the fanbase is like. Always.

[CrazyT]

Golden sun feels like  the shining series in every single way. They never lost the priest, the long conversations between characters, the music, the way battles are viewed from the same angle, the races, the polish and more. I've been playing the game for a while stocking up 25 hours now (still not finished) and the amount of polish that went into the game is extraordinary. It's beautiful. Just when you think that things can't get any better they do.

You're making a big mistake with that statement. That's all I got to say. Camelot hasn't changed.

[Aki-at]

I would say that Golden Sun is more childesh than some of the Shining series, but despite that, it does not mean the games are bad or anything, think of it like Sonic vs Shinobi, one of these platformers is more violent than the other, but it does not mean the former is worse (Well it is worse now, but not back in the days!)

So I would recommend it still, as it's a nicely designed game. However the series was meant to go beyond just three games and at the current moment, that seems very very unlikely. It does feel somewhat like a Shining game, but in many ways, it does not. I would rather argue it feels like it's own game and it's own world, and a rather well designed world at that.

Though Camelot working on it's original IPs maybe sometime off now thanks to the terrible sales of Golden Sun 3.

Going back to the original topics, analysts in Japan are predicting that Shining Hearts is set to become the most successful first week Shining game ever and it seems set to beat Golden Sun 3's opening week in Japan by more than doubling it.

[Aki-at]

And I've just recieved confirmation that Shining Hearts has done at least 80,000 day one sales.

That means it outsold Valkyria Chronicles 1 week one sales (80,000) Valkyria 2 week sales are probably going to be overtaken (100,000) Golden Sun 3 week one sales (47,000) and could very well over take End of Eternity PS3 (120,000)

Here's something else to think about; Shining Hearts, a generic looking traditional RPG on the PSP (15 million sales in Japan) is set to become the most successful Shining game that we have any recorded data for. Whilst we have Shining Force Feather, a SRPG on the DS (30 million + sales in Japan) the closest Shining game we had in a decade, not only failed to get anywhere close to 100,000 (Something that the series established doing on the PS2) but it sold so poorly that it put the developer out of business.

So there you have it folks, the Shining series is set to stay like this for a long long time. I suppose you can take comfort in knowing at least one of the original race is in Shining Cross, but that's about it I'm afraid.

[Sharky]

There aren't any dragonites or centaurs in cross.

[Aki-at]

There aren't any dragonites or centaurs in cross.

I'm talking about these guys;

[Sharky]

Ah for some reason I read what you said wrong and thought you were saying ALL of the classic races were in it. never mind.

As for the Shining Force situation, thats fine and dandy that they sell so many copies, but since they have the Canvas engine already made. Which would be perfect for a new Shining Force game... It wouldnt hurt to throw us a bone as well as making the flamboyant crap.

If they can make games as different as Cross and Hearts at the same time they could make a classic too.

[Truesonic]

At this point the most we can hope for is a centaur, wolfman, robot, dragon etc. class added in Cross.

I think as Aki-at has said before, Sega probably believes this is the right direction for the series to take. I personally wish they would change the name of this series to something else. To call any of these games a 'Shining' game is an insult to the original series. I guess the rest of us are either going to have to accept the change or continue to whine at the lack of Camelot's influence. :<