Ryu ga Gotoku 4 NEW Trailer

[Team Andromeda]

I don't know you too well, I respect and appreciate your opinions, but I guess I figured you as a traditionalist which is why I'm surprised by your response.. I guess I would respond by saying back in the day, yes, there were a ton of platformers but those were quirky novel and artistic games being played by gamers. They were gamer's games. And also there were plenty of shoot em ups, fighters, rpg's and brawlers to balance the offerings.

The trouble there’s shooters and fighters around now , they just don’t sell as good , nothing to do with FPS's , but just the way of the world .  Fight Sims , Point and Click have all suffered too ,  but only because not enough people like or want to plat those style of games . Shooters , Fighting games were ding a slow  a death in the 32bit erea , otherwise the Saturn would have cleaned up , with time people tastes change and so do the markets
I mean once Coin-Ups were vastly more powerful than consumer based consoles ,  that simply isn't the case now . That down to FPS's too, in a market where FPS game have never really made impact  


You go on about Artistic an novel , what was novel or Artistic  about Mario IV, or SEGA's Disney series of games . Nothing new at all , to there to see, nothing striking in Art terms (unlike say Yoshi Island) . They just played well , and were in a genre,  that at that time was in the vogue and hugely popular .
It's silly talk , as Panzer Dragoon fan , I would love to see the series sell as well as the so called Space Marine Games , I would have loved to see the series sell 30 million plus , as I'm sure any SEGA fan would , same goes for Jet Set Radio.
If those games sold by the pot full , I wouldn't look at them any less at all , in fact I would be over the moon .

Just curious, but what region are you from? I don't remember that talk.. Weren't the 16bit days over before the internet gaming discussion started, maybe I came to it later

UK, and in the 16 bit days , Magazines and TV shows were all moaning at the lack of anything new , and yawn another platform  game , or yawn another platform  film licensed based game - how original (a lot said that for the Judge Dread  Mega Drive game)

[MadeManG74]

I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.

I'm playing a Wii hardcore game right now?

I think your threatened and resentful when confronted with the reality of your mass audience status.

I posted up arguments as to why it was unique for it's time. I gave you direct and sensible arguments against what you were claiming, but you didn't read them.

I have no argument about it being unique for it's time.. It's all the sequels and spawn of space marine games that followed.  Space marines are a mass audience staple now..

Afraid that you'll realise you are wrong?

I think you are threatened and resentful when confronted with the truth.

Well, it was the onset of mainstream gaming a decade ago that killed the old Sega and killed DC, so.. ?  I don't feel "wrong", more like I'm stating something factual that already occurred.

Believe me I appreciate your good and detailed points, most people don't bother outling stuff as well as you do.. I'm sorry it's just I've been over this road many, many times and it takes time to develop. But I'll try...

It's a basic principle of art and commerce that commercialization lowers the art value of a product or entertainment.  When something is made to sell to a mass audience it is made to appeal to a mass audience and thus the artistic ideal of a game is lowered to make it most conducive for mass consumption.  Look at the Sonic games, they are a good example of that.. Look at how in 15 years there hasn't been a Sonic game that has lived up to the classic Sonic fan ideal.

DC had a line-up of extremely artsy and niche games.. the market was moving in another direction, though.  Mass audiences beyond the traditional hardcore gamer came into gaming in waves thanks to Playstation 1 & 2, Xbox and EA and Activision.  Sega used to lead the art of gaming but in got increasingly relegated to a niche as they no longer resonated with the new gaming audiences that went for big budget franchises and their sequels over quirky, innovative and original titles.

Space marines = mass audience gaming.  A hardcore old school gamer may play a space marine game and that is perfectly fine, but there are a lot of mainstreamers playing them and that is where art and innovation get compromised to get their dollars..

You say I'm killing the industry, I say that is fine because I want to see a smaller more niche industry with few consumers and fewer and higher quality and innovative games.  Gone are the days where a Suzuki, Naka, Miyamoto, or whoever led game design by pursuing their artistic visions.  The producers today have to follow the design parameters outlined to them by the marketers.  Look at werehog that everybody complained about as an example.. Look at Mario.. SMB, SMB3, SMB4 were brilliant works of art.. NSMBWii while maybe being a fun game is really low in the art of Mario.  just some examples..

I'll see what you have to say before going on more.

I think you are on a different tangent to what I was arguing about. I understand your views on why you think that more gamers hurts the industry, and I disagree entirely (mostly because more gamers=more potential buyers and more budget for the niche titles).

The thing I was arguing about was that games that you dismiss as too 'mainstream' or too 'casual', games like Halo, Mass Effect, Gears of War and what have you, have just as much artistic merit to them (Or close to it) and are just as deserving of praise, and are made for 'long time gamers' just as much as Yakuza is.

You said you agree with me that Halo was unique for it's time, but you don't like that it's been imitated so many times, or that the setting has become so popular. But by that same logic, look how little Yakuza has changes through the series, and how much of a hackney is the 'gritty crime/revenge' setting now?

I agree with you Yakuza is a good series, I loved Yakuza and I'm nearly through Yakuza and love it even more, but I won't praise it at the expense of other great games out there is all.

[east of eastside]

The trouble there’s shooters and fighters around now , they just don’t sell as good , nothing to do with FPS's , but just the way of the world .  Fight Sims , Point and Click have all suffered too ,  but only because not enough people like or want to plat those style of games . Shooters , Fighting games were ding a slow  a death in the 32bit erea , otherwise the Saturn would have cleaned up , with time people tastes change and so do the markets
I mean once Coin-Ups were vastly more powerful than consumer based consoles ,  that simply isn't the case now . That down to FPS's too, in a market where FPS game have never really made impact  


You go on about Artistic an novel , what was novel or Artistic  about Mario IV, or SEGA's Disney series of games . Nothing new at all , to there to see, nothing striking in Art terms (unlike say Yoshi Island) . They just played well , and were in a genre,  that at that time was in the vogue and hugely popular .
It's silly talk , as Panzer Dragoon fan , I would love to see the series sell as well as the so called Space Marine Games , I would have loved to see the series sell 30 million plus , as I'm sure any SEGA fan would , same goes for Jet Set Radio.
If those games sold by the pot full , I wouldn't look at them any less at all , in fact I would be over the moon .

My viewpoint needed to be made more accurate than I was stating it.  It's not the popularity of the genres or the how well they sell that I'm concerned about rather the waves of mass audience gamers that have been brought in the last decade by the big mainstream genres.  These genres like fps are bringing expanded audiences beyond the traditional game audiences of the past.  I blame them, whether that is accurate or not is another argument, for lowering the art value of gaming as a whole.  

Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then?  Because they are too niche.  So, thank you again to mainstream gaming for denying us this. This is my whole point and my issue with modern mainstream gaming.  If gaming had never taken off in this direction we would have those niche titles today. These are after all gamer's games where as fps are games for a wide range of people of varying degree of gaming dedication and appreciation. You are making my point.

[east of eastside]

I think you are on a different tangent to what I was arguing about. I understand your views on why you think that more gamers hurts the industry, and I disagree entirely (mostly because more gamers=more potential buyers and more budget for the niche titles).

I think we were on a different tangent conflict too. Some of that is my fault for not getting more specific about my real issues being the audiences and not the genre themselves.  I have no problem with your disagreement because that is something up to debate, but there were more niche title before the mainstream craze took off with PS1/2 and Xbox, so that is something to think about.

The thing I was arguing about was that games that you dismiss as too 'mainstream' or too 'casual', games like Halo, Mass Effect, Gears of War and what have you, have just as much artistic merit to them (Or close to it) and are just as deserving of praise, and are made for 'long time gamers' just as much as Yakuza is.

I'm still calling Yakuza a "gamer's game" (in the traditional old school hardcore gamer sense) and the fps's, core mainstream games.  I don't know if this will help, but I'm kind of following this distinction:

http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D ... ream_Gamer

Mainstream Gamer

These gamers came in during the biggest boom in gaming. Where gaming became widely accepted by the masses, with Playstation becoming a household name. This era saw SEGA's last great hurrah with the Dreamcast, and Microsoft's entrance to the business with the XBox. (Notice this era, mainstream, saw the last great hurrah of Sega)


Core Gamer

This is the third largest portion of the gaming community and they usually get along with all of the other types of gamers since they tend to have a little of each in them. These types of gamers have very broad tastes in games and will play virtually anything presented to them as long as they find it entertaining. (This is you, my friend) They tend to lean to more complex games however, RTS and RPG's, with a healthy smattering of variety. These type of gamers schedule varies, but they love gaming and see it as more than just a method of entertainment, often participating in online message boards and following news and trade shows for the games/hardware of their choice. These gamers are early adopters of the hardware of their choice and buy games often.

Gaming Time: 2-7 Days A Week/On Average 2-6 Hours A Day Preffered Hardware: PS3/Wii/360/Handhelds/PC


HardCore Gamer

This type of gamer takes his gaming VERY seriously. They see gaming as a way of life, (This is me, the real old school psycho's) and gaming tends to be very prevalent in every aspect of their day-to-day lives, often participating VERY actively in online message boards and following news and going to trade shows for the games/hardware of their choice. These types of gamers tend to be more selective in the games they choose, often shunning more mainstream titles (Here we go) and opting for more complex and/or time-consuming titles. They tend to go for mastery of a title, often playing and re-playing games to experience everything a title has to offer. These types of gamers are usually day-one adopters and buyers of games, often even importers for early release or rare titles. These types of gamers are a minority in the community and often don't get along with any other type of gamer(Oops!  :mrgreen: ), except the Core Gamers (Sometimes :lol: ).

Gaming Time: 3-7 Days A Week/ On Average 4-8 Hours A Day Preffered Hardware: 360/PS3/Handhelds/PC

You said you agree with me that Halo was unique for it's time, but you don't like that it's been imitated so many times, or that the setting has become so popular. But by that same logic, look how little Yakuza has changes through the series, and how much of a hackney is the 'gritty crime/revenge' setting now?

Okay, I've clarified now that what I really don't like is the wave of mass audience brought into gaming by fps.  Yakuza hasn't brought any mainstream audiences into gaming, at least in the west, so I make that distinction between it and fps's. As far as specifically what you are saying about setting, in Yakuza's case I have a strong bias towards Japanese aesthetic and atmosphere, which Yakuza is rich in.  Who knows, even though Vanquish may be fps I may be cool with it for that same reason.  I don't have a problem with Japanese mainstream because it is a different phenomenon than west. Japanese society is more spirtual and aesthetic than west.

I agree with you Yakuza is a good series, I loved Yakuza and I'm nearly through Yakuza and love it even more, but I won't praise it at the expense of other great games out there is all.

You shouldn't view it as praising at the expense, more like taking a jab at dominant genre that monopolize media attention and gamer mindshare and relegates a great game like this to being a tiny overlooked niche title.

Neither you or TA really addressed the matter of the decline of Sega following with the rise of mainstream gaming and I really think that vindicates a lot of my view.  Something worth thinking about...  

[Sega Uranus]

The only reason SEGA became popular at ALL was because they designed games that appealed to the masses, like Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe, OutRun, etc etc. The Dreamcast especially had a lot of games designed specifically to attract a "Casual" crowd with titles such as Space Channel 5 and Samba De Amigo - But it was not because of that the Dreamcast died, or was it the PlayStation 2, it was because SEGA was stupid and made a product that was insanely easy to pirate that everything just collapsed within itself and they had to abandon ship.

Of course they wanted to make more artistic games, like Ecco the Dolphin and in the case of that, it was a success, but more often than not, games that try to be too new or creative are a bad idea if you want to be successful, but it is also good to take risks sometimes. Of course, with the economy the way it is, you are obviously not going to see it much.

Really, it just comes down to you saying game X is better than game Y and that you are a better person for liking it and everyone else is ruining your fun somehow. I mean, just because you like something does not mean everyone will. I personally hate Jet Set Radio, Valkyria Chronicles, Phantasy Star II, but that does not make me any less of a SEGA fan, in fact almost all of my games are at the very least published by them. I am sure there are some games SEGA made that you do not like either, yeah?

[MadeManG74]

Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche. So, thank you again to mainstream gaming for denying us this.

Okay, you seem to hate 'mainstream games' and 'mainstream gamers', from what I understand, the popular games.

What I don't understand is, how the hell is that damaging 'niche' or the more quirky games at all?

Think about it, those 'new mainstream gamers' might not buy a lot of quirky, niche titles, but even if 10% of them buy one of those games, isn't that more than if they were never even gaming at all? Think about it, those popular games like Halo,  brought in new customers. The same hardcore gamers like you and me are still around buying games, AND we have potential new customers too.

The other thing is, you make it sound like 90% of games out today are FPS or have a space marine setting. Please name how many FPS Space Marine games came out last year compared to the other genres.

In the last 6 months or so my favourite games have been Batman: Arkham Asylum, Brutal Legend, Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed 2, Darksiders and Mass Effect 2.

Out of those, NONE are FPS and only ONE is set in outer-space. They are all games of high quality and great art design and direction, with a lot of love behind them. From what I can see, the medium is still alive and well.

[jonboy101]

So because Virtua Fighter used to sell hundreds of thousands, and millions of copies, it is no longer card core?

[Team Andromeda]

My viewpoint needed to be made more accurate than I was stating it. It's not the popularity of the genres or the how well they sell that I'm concerned about rather the waves of mass audience gamers that have been brought in the last decade by the big mainstream genres. These genres like fps are bringing expanded audiences beyond the traditional game audiences of the past. I blame them, whether that is accurate or not is another argument, for lowering the art value of gaming as a whol

You're being silly , and getting caught up in this Tinted Rose glasses lark,  of its wasn't has good as the Old days .
I'm sorry you couldn't get any more casual , anymore mainstream than SONIC on the Mega Drive , which SEGA used to full effect in the 16 bit days . You really think it was just so called HardCore gamers that bought SONIC ?.

I'm sorry but imo FPS's are this gens Platformers, when all is said and done . You go on about ART right ?. The Art used in Mirror's Edge is breathtaking , so is  Half Life II/Ep 1& II  , and FPS's with no Space Marines in sight too  :roll:

Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche

What rubbish , A huge reason for that is SEGA Hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit days . If the Saturn were to have been a brilliant seller (to that for the MD) I've no doubt,  Panzer Dragoon  Saga would have sold over a 1 million copies

Neither you or TA really addressed the matter of the decline of Sega following with the rise of mainstream gaming and I really think that vindicates a lot of my view

Wake up , SEGA had the mainstream gaming market inthe 16 bit days , Yes those casual gamers you claim to hate, all loved Sonic & the likes of  Aladdin (about as mainstream as one could get).  SEGA lost all that,  along with its good  name ,3rd party development support , through  hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit Battle .

You want mainstream gaming at its very hight , Try playing Sonic Vs Mario , Super Monkey Ball Step & Roll, Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing, Iorn Man . They're about as Mainstream as one could ever  wish to get , and who makes or developers those games ?

[east of eastside]

I don't have time to reply to everything, right now.. I will go back and reply to points that are relevant, but you guys are missing this point that I already posted:

http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D ... ream_Gamer

Mainstream Gamer

These gamers came in during the biggest boom in gaming. Where gaming became widely accepted by the masses, with Playstation becoming a household name. This era saw SEGA's last great hurrah with the Dreamcast, and Microsoft's entrance to the business with the XBox. (Notice this era, mainstream, saw the last great hurrah of Sega)

It's all right there. This person knows what he is talking about. The game market evolved a hell of a lot since the 16bit days and if you are going to ignore that critical factor there is no pointing talking about it.  These new mainstream audiences had no interest in niche titles relegating them to a tiny sliver of the market.  

Sonic mainstream appeal, duh.. dur.. no shit... It always did because it was a great title just like Mario, but the reality is that video game market in the 16bit era was a much narrower demographic (kids and geeks) then it became in the 32bit era and then in the PS2/Xbox era (male 6 to 40 and not just geeks).  It's the demographic change to a wider mainstream audience (wider than the 16bit era one) that I'm blaming for the problem.

This is really obvious and anyone knowledgeable of history and evolution of the game market knows what I'm talking about.  I was 20 years old during the 16bit era, maybe you guys were 10.. maybe even younger and can't appreciate the market change.

[Team Andromeda]

It's all right there. This person knows what he is talking about. The game market evolved a hell of a lot since the 16bit days and if you are going to ignore that critical factor there is no pointing talking about it. These new mainstream audiences had no interest in niche titles relegating them to a tiny sliver of the market.

Sonic mainstream appeal, duh.. dur.. no shit... It always did because it was a great title just like Mario, but the reality is that video game market in the 16bit era was a much narrower demographic (kids and geeks) then it became in the 32bit era and then in the PS2/Xbox era (male 6 to 40 and not just geeks). It's the demographic change to a wider mainstream audience (wider than the 16bit era one) that I'm blaming for the problem.

This is really obvious and anyone knowledgeable of history and evolution of the game market knows what I'm talking about. I was 20 years old during the 16bit era, maybe you guys were 10.. maybe even younger and can't appreciate the market change.

There's been Mainstream gamers since the very start , Who do you think were buying the Atari 2600 , The NES ? - Those were all Hardcore gamers ?, Not on your nelly.

 The Mega Drive and Snes did'nt sell some 80 million consoles Combined , appealing to just  the hardcore gamer , you only get those sort of sale and numbers,  by getting the casuals onboard .
What change with the PS is that SEGA totally messed up , and NCL came in late , giving SONY a massive open goal , to which they used to their advantage , combine that with how easy it was to mod the PS (when sales really went through the roof)  and SONY were laughing with  the PS sales.  

And let me tell it was grown men , not just kids and geeks,  that were buying the likes of Destert Strike , John Madden and more so FIFA for their Mega Drive's  Anyone that knows a little about SEGA or the Videogame industry , will known the vital role SEGA played in getting Adults into the  gaming with the , Mega Drive , and making Consoles ‘cool’ to own . Its did that through games that appealed to them , and more so some fantastic promotion and advertising.

Oh and another thing the Mega Drive sold better than the machine noted for it's FPS's  , Namely The X-Box . So how that fits in with the notion that Space Marine games killed the Hardcore gamer I do not . The PS2 was a pile of crap for FPS games . And you may not remember , but  I do. SEGA pushing the like of Quake III, Duke Nukem 3D and Quake very very hard .

Couldn't save the Dreamcast or Saturn , but that's down to poor 3rd party support and PR , more than the lack of so called HardCore gamers .

[east of eastside]

You're being silly , and getting caught up in this Tinted Rose glasses lark,  of its wasn't has good as the Old days .

No, that is such a tired overused internet cliche..

I'm sorry you couldn't get any more casual , anymore mainstream than SONIC on the Mega Drive , which SEGA used to full effect in the 16 bit days . You really think it was just so called HardCore gamers that bought SONIC ?.

I'm sorry you are too young, or whatever, to realize that mainstream gaming demographic widened dramatically from what it was in the 16bit days. That is the whole point of my argument you are not getting.  Do you think the mainstream gaming demographic of the 16bit era is the same as the one of the 32bit era? 64bit era? Today?  If you do, you are totally wrong.

I'm sorry but imo FPS's are this gens Platformers, when all is said and done . You go on about ART right ?. The Art used in Mirror's Edge is breathtaking , so is  Half Life II/Ep 1& II  , and FPS's with no Space Marines in sight too  :roll:

Friend, and how did ME sell?  Like shit, right? We are getting close to my point..  I actually thought that ME had that old Sega vibe.. Blue skys.. (heh) innovative.. I said, "this is the kind of game old Sega might have published".  

The whole difference between todays FPS and 16bit gens platformers players are a widening gaming demographic.  The 16bit era one was narrower and more inclined to niche and cult art than the jocks, and joe and johnny avg nobody mainstreams playing fps today.  Gaming in the 16bit era was still heavily under the geek and nerd stigmitization, ask yourself how much that still appliers today?

What rubbish , A huge reason for that is SEGA Hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit days . If the Saturn were to have been a brilliant seller (to that for the MD) I've no doubt,  Panzer Dragoon  Saga would have sold over a 1 million copies

It's not at all rubbish. Saturn and DC titles were much more to the niche side when the mainstream gaming audience was widening. If your going to fall back on the mismanagement thing exclusively then you are showing your age omitting the ever critical factor of market change.

Wake up , SEGA had the mainstream gaming market inthe 16 bit days , Yes those casual gamers you claim to hate, all loved Sonic & the likes of  Aladdin (about as mainstream as one could get).  SEGA lost all that,  along with its good  name ,3rd party development support , through  hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit Battle .

TA, you exposing your flaw in your argument.  The mainstream gaming market of the 16bit days is totally different than the one of today.  Until you get that, you won't make the connection I'm trying to get you to see.  You are totally, totally ignoring market evolution and that is totally wrong.

According to you, the gaming market (demographics) did not change from the 16bit era to today and that is totally wrong.  And I'm not talking about girl gamers and non-gaming retards. I'm talking the male demographic.

You want mainstream gaming at its very hight , Try playing Sonic Vs Mario , Super Monkey Ball Step & Roll, Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing, Iorn Man . They're about as Mainstream as one could ever  wish to get , and who makes or developers those games ?

I don't see your point.. Yeah, Sega makes that.  That is actually my point.. they have to move to where the market is.. Sonic is relegated to crap today, because today it is only a kiddy brand where as in the 16bit era the geeks and nerds were his hardcore fans. How did Bayonetta do and how is Yakuza going to do in the west?  The core of gaming is less hardcore than in the past and more wide audience mainstream.. Sega had to adjust or die.

MM, I'm getting to your's...

[Team Andromeda]

Do you think the mainstream gaming demographic of the 16bit era is the same as the one of the 32bit era? 64bit era? Today?

To a large part yes , There's be more gamers , and older one at that , but that's only natural .

Friend, and how did ME sell? Like shit, right? We are getting close to my point.. I actually thought that ME had that old Sega vibe.. Blue sky

I can list loads of FPS that have sold poor , not all games will make it , that's not a refection of the game , or the game market , just what always happens .

The 16bit era one was narrower and more inclined to niche and cult art than the jocks, and joe and johnny avg nobody mainstreams playing fps today

Johnny Maintream was alive and well in the Mega Drive days . The huge difference is the cost , development time , team size needed to make games . That's what killed a lot of games developers as soon as we went 3D with the Saturn and PS .  
That's the killer , these days  the cost of Games development .  In the 16 BIT and 8 Bit days , with tiny team sizes , short development time , you didn't need to sell millions , that is not the case anymore .

Saturn and DC titles were much more to the niche side when the mainstream gaming audience was widening

What was niche about the 3D Fighters and RPG's SEGA made for the Saturn and DC ?, what was niche about the likes of Sonic Adv , SEGA GT, SEGA RALLY, Decathlete, Quake , Quake III, Duke Nukem 3D, NFL 2k2, Giant Gram  .
I'm telling you if Saturn was to have sold as well as the Mega Drive did for SEGA, I've no doubt Saga would have been a million seller , and you for one , wouldn;t have been complaining
SEGA was trying so hard to get the casuals with the DC, it even dumped down the bloody DC pad , to 4 face buttons .

Yeah, Sega makes that. That is actually my point.. they have to move to where the market is.. Sonic is relegated to crap today, because today it is only a kiddy brand where as in the 16bit era the geeks and nerds were his hardcore fans

SEGA have always tried to cash-in on games that sell well in the Market place , The likes of Sonic Shuffle, SEGA GT,  Streets  of Rage,  Space Channel 5 are prime example of that . And Sonic get a bad press, becasue his games have been poor , or shameless cash -ins , to which only SEGA is to blame, nothing to do with a lack of Nerds , Sonic was always meant to appeal to kids, that's why he's lovely cute animal/mammal :roll: .

How did Bayonetta do and how is Yakuza going to do in the west?

Bayonetta is selling well isn't it ? As for Yakuza that is like asking how well does Madden, or Oblivion  sell in Japan . Yakuza is 100 %made for the Japanese Audience and tastes . Hasn't Demon Souls sold very well inthe USA ?, now there's a game that some might call HardCore , how well has the like of Ninja Gaiden II, DMC IV sold , millions of copies right .

Not a space Marine in sight , and game very much in the Bayonetta  Mould

[east of eastside]

Do you think the mainstream gaming demographic of the 16bit era is the same as the one of the 32bit era? 64bit era? Today?

To a large part yes , There's be more gamers , and older one at that , but that's only natural .

Well, that is the whole crux of the disagreement..

posting this again:

http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D ... ream_Gamer

Mainstream Gamer

These gamers came in during the biggest boom in gaming. Where gaming became widely accepted by the masses, with Playstation becoming a household name. This era saw SEGA's last great hurrah with the Dreamcast, and Microsoft's entrance to the business with the XBox. (Notice this era, mainstream, saw the last great hurrah of Sega)

Note how this describes the PS1 era as the era of the mainstream gamer where gaming "became widely accepted by the masses". That's reality, maybe it was less evident in Europe than it was in the USA..

The male gaming demographic widened in every era after the 16bit gen, firstly getting older and more mainstream with PS1, and then way more mainstream and a broader age demographic with PS2/Xbox and now.

We are arguing about a matter of degree.  Was there mainstream gaming in the 16bit era, yes?  To the same degree in the 32bit and 64, no.. it was much larger.

Gaming in the 80's and early/mid 90's was largely in the realm of kids and geek and nerd subculture.  It gradually became more mainstream..

Were jocks, (quarterbacks and wrestlers, not the geeky sports) playing Sonic 1, 2, 3 in the 90's? For the most part no.  

Are they playing fps and other male domination fantasies now?  Yes, along with a much wider male gaming demographic.

Johnny Maintream was alive and well in the Mega Drive days . The huge difference is the cost , development time , team size needed to make games . That's what killed a lot of games developers as soon as we went 3D with the Saturn and PS .  
That's the killer , these days  the cost of Games development .  In the 16 BIT and 8 Bit days , with tiny team sizes , short development time , you didn't need to sell millions , that is not the case anymore .

I do not deny those variable.. they actually fit with my point, games need to sell millions now to recover cost, and thus you better target a wide audience with them.. and thus you can kiss goodbye to niche and art content, lower the bar for mass appeal.

What was niche about the 3D Fighters and RPG's SEGA made for the Saturn and DC ?, what was niche about the likes of Sonic Adv , SEGA GT, SEGA RALLY, Decathlete, Quake , Quake III, Duke Nukem 3D, NFL 2k2, Giant Gram  .
I'm telling you if Saturn was to have sold as well as the Mega Drive did for SEGA, I've no doubt Saga would have been a million seller , and you for one , wouldn;t have been complaining
SEGA was trying so hard to get the casuals with the DC, it even dumped down the bloody DC pad , to 4 face buttons .

Seaman was for normal people? Why be selective?

The mainstream audiences were playing the more mainstream genres on the PS1..  The main differentiating point between Sega and PS1 was thus the niche content, other than something big like VF and Sonic of which only VF was being well represented. So, Sega got identified as niche and PS1 the new mainstream.

DC's line up was too niche.. I'm not saying anything off the wall by saying that.. When Peter Moore was interviewed for DC's 10th he was asked about that, "was the line up too niche when the market was going mainstream.. GTA, Halo, Tony Hawk, DVD player, etc?"

Bayonetta is selling well isn't it ? As for Yakuza that is like asking how well does Madden, or Oblivion  sell in Japan . Yakuza is 100 %made for the Japanese Audience and tastes . Hasn't Demon Souls sold very well inthe USA ?, now there's a game that some might call HardCore , how well has the like of Ninja Gaiden II, DMC IV sold , millions of copies right .

Not a space Marine in sight , and game very much in the Bayonetta  Mould

My point is that the gaming demographic has changed significantly since the 16bit era becoming wider and more mass audience with each successive era.  This is true, it is in the realm of fact.  To say it is "to a large part" the same is dismissive. That is the whole crux of my argument.. As gaming became more mass audience (which it did) gaming content changed to reflect that, much to my dislike.

[east of eastside]

Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche. So, thank you again to mainstream gaming for denying us this.

Okay, you seem to hate 'mainstream games' and 'mainstream gamers', from what I understand, the popular games.

What I don't understand is, how the hell is that damaging 'niche' or the more quirky games at all?

Think about it, those 'new mainstream gamers' might not buy a lot of quirky, niche titles, but even if 10% of them buy one of those games, isn't that more than if they were never even gaming at all? Think about it, those popular games like Halo,  brought in new customers. The same hardcore gamers like you and me are still around buying games, AND we have potential new customers too.

Well, as gaming audiences became more mainstream (which they did) gaming content changed to reflect that, thus relegating the more "gamer's game" stuff to a niche.  It's not that it "damages the niche", but relegated it to being niche in the first place.

When you popularize mainstream gaming, hardcore gaming loses.  When you popularize casual gaming then hardcore gaming loses yet even more to another degree.

The problem we might have is the definition of a hardcore gamer, which is why I included those definitions in the earlier response.

People think Halo and fps are hardcore games, but they are not.. they core mainstream games.  They might be "hardcore" from a casual perspective, but not from an old school hardcore perspective.

The other thing is, you make it sound like 90% of games out today are FPS or have a space marine setting. Please name how many FPS Space Marine games came out last year compared to the other genres.

In the last 6 months or so my favourite games have been Batman: Arkham Asylum, Brutal Legend, Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed 2, Darksiders and Mass Effect 2.

Out of those, NONE are FPS and only ONE is set in outer-space. They are all games of high quality and great art design and direction, with a lot of love behind them. From what I can see, the medium is still alive and well.

Yes, but my real issue is not with the space marine games but the mass audience gamers.  

I enjoyed Batman: AA.. It is high quality, there just wasn't anything niche, cult or hardcore about it.. Not saying that is bad, just that it is a "mainstream game".

The medium is still alive, though soul less and creatively stagnant. It's all "fun" from a pointless recreation activity, but gone are the mind-blowing, far out, and memorable games for the most part.

[east of eastside]

TA,

here you go...

http://www.destructoid.com/sony-we-brok ... 6032.phtml

Sony: We broke the mainstream barrier, not Nintendo

"The most successful console is still the PS2 and it's still going strong," claims Hirai, comparing a console released nine years ago to a console released three years ago. "I think that's the console that really broke the barrier from videogames being just for videogamers into more of a mass market on a global basis. Nintendo's obviously done a great job in following that mass acceptance."

You make me feel like I'm talking crazy, but I'm not.. as far as the mainstream-ization of gaming, there was a real specific and discernible point when that happened.

Even Hirai, makes the distinction between "video games for video gamers" and the "mass acceptance" by the "mass market".

This coincided with the decline of Sega... which was, more left of center and more niche as far as mainstream goes..

This is the whole crux of my point.

1)Mass audiences did enter gaming to a much greater degree than 16bit gen.
2)Catering to these mass audiences lowered the art of gaming.. more cliche, more pop culture, commodisized gaming, brown, brown.. space marine, sonic =kids only, marketers design games, etc..

Here is another...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6217053.html


Peter Moore talks Dreamcast 10 years later

GS: Some of the Dreamcast's best-loved and most memorable games--Shenmue, Jet Grind Radio, Skies of Arcadia, Seaman, Crazy Taxi--were original intellectual properties. Was there too much of an emphasis on these original and unproven franchises?

PM: We really didn't--maybe with the exception of Sonic Adventure--have that game that was aimed at a broad mass market that could really be the "killer app" to drive the hardware.[/color]

DC was too niche when the market was going way mainstream thanks to Sony.