Sony, MS, mainstream gaming and the end of Sega hardware

[east of eastside]

I'm telling you guys, Space Wars was the last 'game for gamers'. Everything after that was just mainstream corporate casual rubbish dumbed down to appeal to the mass market.

I'm proud of you, brother.  you're getting there!   :mrgreen:

Damn right, real games should require punch-cards, not these un-niche, soulless 'Compact Discs' that the kids are raving about.

"Back in my day, we used to have REAL gameplay... We didn't have any of this fancy 3D stuff!"

Okay, let me just be serious again for a moment. I was a Hardcore Sega fan since I was 4 years old playing Master System and Mega Drive games, and talking it up as school. I used to hate Nintendo, then hate Sony as well.

Looking back though, I think that was more down to me being a kid rather than any mark of a true fan. Now I'm still a hardcore sega lover, but I'm not so short-sighted to ignore great games made by competitors. I wish I had been more open minded back in the day and maybe even bought an N64 to complement my Saturn or something. Obviously I still loved the Saturn best, but there were some brilliant games on N64 and PlayStation too.

I would argue that MOST people on this site are also hardcore, long time Sega fans. At a point though, you just realise that hating the competition so unconditionally isn't really a good thing.

That's not a true characterization at all.  I am a strong supporter of PS3.(Back in their days I was a huge supporter of N64, GC and I loved SNES and NES)  I've purchased many of the more mainstream and western franchises.  I'm not stopping myself from enjoying them.. I just don't enjoy them as much.  I want Jet, Shenmue, Panzer, Yakuza, Rez..  I don't want Infamous, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Batman AA, etc.  I don't enjoy those games as much.. they're too mainstream generic, cliche, pop culture references, little art value, uninspiring, etc..

Playing that stuff is just game mechanics and story lines and cinema's.. nothing  memorable, no vibe, no feeling, no edge. I don't play just for the sake of playing.

The people here are nothing like the old Sega fans. They appreciated Sega Style and were anguished by the vanquishing of it by mainstream gaming.

Imagine a Sega Style game today.. Where are the cutting edge and high end games today, MadeMan?  Where are they?

[MadeManG74]

Okay, let me just be serious again for a moment. I was a Hardcore Sega fan since I was 4 years old playing Master System and Mega Drive games, and talking it up as school. I used to hate Nintendo, then hate Sony as well.

Looking back though, I think that was more down to me being a kid rather than any mark of a true fan. Now I'm still a hardcore sega lover, but I'm not so short-sighted to ignore great games made by competitors. I wish I had been more open minded back in the day and maybe even bought an N64 to complement my Saturn or something. Obviously I still loved the Saturn best, but there were some brilliant games on N64 and PlayStation too.

I would argue that MOST people on this site are also hardcore, long time Sega fans. At a point though, you just realise that hating the competition so unconditionally isn't really a good thing.

That's not a true characterization at all.  I am a strong supporter of PS3.(Back in their days I was a huge supporter of N64, GC and I loved SNES and NES)  I've purchased many of the more mainstream and western franchises.  I'm not stopping myself from enjoying them.. I just don't enjoy them as much.  I want Jet, Shenmue, Panzer, Yakuza, Rez..  I don't want Infamous, Uncharted, Killzone 2, Batman AA, etc.  I don't enjoy those games as much.. they're too mainstream generic, cliche, pop culture references, little art value, uninspiring, etc..

Playing that stuff is just game mechanics and story lines and cinema's.. nothing  memorable, no vibe, no feeling, no edge. I don't play just for the sake of playing.

The people here are nothing like the old Sega fans. They appreciated Sega Style and were anguished by the vanquishing of it by mainstream gaming.

Imagine a Sega Style game today.. Where are the cutting edge and high end game today, MadeMan?  Where are they?

Once again you're moving into your arguments that have no real value, saying stuff like 'Mainstream and uninspiring' etc etc with no real explanation of why or how certain games fall into those categories when others dont. I'm not even going to touch that one, but rather just say I disagree entirely.

Hell, look I would love nothing more than to see Shenmue III, JSR is one of my all time favourite games (my top three games of all time are Shenmue, Shining Force III trilogy and other Sega games that rotate depending on which way the wind is blowing), but I'm not going to forsake other great games just because they aren't specifically made by sega or a sequel to an old favourite.

I love Sega games as much as anybody here, but the whole argument of 'Sega Style' is really a dicey subject. People apply to anything they like, and then deny it when it suits them. Sega has such a wide range of great games, there is no one 'style' of game they make.

[Emmett The Crab]

To be fair, I haven't played Uno in a long time.

[east of eastside]

Once again you're moving into your arguments that have no real value, saying stuff like 'Mainstream and uninspiring' etc etc with no real explanation of why or how certain games fall into those categories when others dont. I'm not even going to touch that one, but rather just say I disagree entirely.

I'm being serious. If you are not going to touch that then you are missing the whole point. What is cutting edge and inspiring about Uncharted 2 or Batman AA or MAG, etc? Maybe your art appreciation isn't there?

It's hard to explain these things.. Take Rez for example.. it is abstract, unique, conceptually challenging to describe.. It expresses more than the some of it's parts.. Shenmue it is an experience.  Jet is a feeling.. Sorry, this is hard..

Hell, look I would love nothing more than to see Shenmue III, JSR is one of my all time favourite games (my top three games of all time are Shenmue, Shining Force III trilogy and other Sega games that rotate depending on which way the wind is blowing), but I'm not going to forsake other great games just because they aren't specifically made by sega or a sequel to an old favourite.

You keep saying that.. I'm not forsaking anything.. I buy a game, play it and don't enjoy all that much.  Uncharted 2 had awesome graphics, and great play mechanics.  Done in two days. Now what?  What was special or memorable about it?  Nothing. What did I forsake? I don't get it?  Am I supposed to say I loved it to make you happy?

I love Sega games as much as anybody here, but the whole argument of 'Sega Style' is really a dicey subject. People apply to anything they like, and then deny it when it suits them. Sega has such a wide range of great games, there is no one 'style' of game they make.

If you don't get Sega Style then you are not a real Sega fan. Then why are you even a fan? Just to be a fan of 4 blue letters and some mascots and franchises?

Sega Style is real.. some people get it..

Look:

 http://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/pr/commu/index.html

“encourage consumers by providing entertainment filled with dreams and excitement to people throughout the world”

By providing entertainment filled with dreams and excitement to people throughout the world, we will strive to enrich our society and culture.

We are dedicated to building a relationship of trust with society, realizing an affluent society, and creating culture..

"Providing dreams and excitement through entertainment full of originality."

Dreams, excitement, originality, enriching culture and society...this is Sega Style straight from the source.

Can't argue with reality.

Or am I crazy because I repeat what the CEO of the company puts on the mission statement?  Or am I crazy because I say "gamer's game" and "mainstream" when Kaz Harai, the king of the Sony universe, says the exact same thing.

I can find you Peter Moore, Charles Bellfield, Bernie Stolar quotes saying similar things.. You guys are core mainstreams.. You don't get it. Don't blame me.. If you think I'm full of it...then why do you even care what I say?  Ignore me then. I'm making things up, who cares?

Modern gaming.. Microsoft, profits through exploitation of all stakeholders. Look at Activision and Bobby Kotick and what is happening there if you think I'm crazy. Modern corporate game 'culture'. Those companies produce commodities not art.  The buyers today are marketing puppets not gamers.

Sega Style was part of the damn culture of the company that is dead now and certainly not in the corporate structure of MS, Sony, and even Nintendo now. It's that way when industries are smaller and niche and people are driven more by passion than greed.  Go read the story about Infinity Wards founder's firing..

[MadeManG74]

Hey Eastside, you bought Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing didn't you?

How's it feel to be a casual mainstream gamer?  

[east of eastside]

Hey Eastside, you bought Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing didn't you?

How's it feel to be a casual mainstream gamer?  

Yeah, I've been playing it really trying to feel it out. Yes, it is a casual game.  It's not arcadey there's not much of an energy to it.  It is solid, clean and really well done for a casual game, but not much character to it.

I have fun with it but not in a way that is deeply satisfying or really addictive. This is the difference between a hardcore and a mainstream or casual game.

It doesn't really have that extra dimension...there's not much to set apart the masters from the above average.

If this were to be hardcore it would have to be 60fps and ramp up the energy to it, but it's not.. It's for everybody and I resent the compromise.. It is still fun but far from greatness, but then you will deny this extra dimension exists.

When is the last time a game made your palms sweat?

[east of eastside]

update: I'm quitting gaming.

bye.

[MadeManG74]

update: I'm quitting gaming.

bye.

Again? Come on now... Hope I didn't offend you or anything.

And what about Yakuza 3?  

As for your question, the last time a game made my palms sweat was when my control pad overheated.
www.instantrimshot.com

Now a question of my own!
Would a mainstream gamer have built this?



(Yes I've just been looking for an excuse to show that off...)

[Sega Uranus]

Going by Eastside's logic, Halo 3 is more of a "Gamer's Game" than Yakuza 3. Think about it.

Halo 3 was designed by people who have all been playing games ever since they were tots and they are all at least in their early 30s now even the art directors and music composers are all gamers (true, look it up), Yakuza 3 is designed with half of the staff being cinematic directors.

Halo 3 has no commercialism OR any bald characters in it !!! Yakuza 3 has billboards on every street that are based off of real-life stuff and has tons of bald characters.

Halo 3 is based on places in space designed off of peoples imagination, Yakuza 3 is literally in real parts of the world with realistic mobsters, a cliche that has been done a billion times over. You can argue that being in space is generic somehow, but how many games have spores that turn into plant zombies? HUH? HUH?

See how much sense this makes when your logic is applied? My point still stands, you are just saying something is a specific way when it is just your opinion.

Of course once you play thousands of games by one developer you are going to notice similarities between them that the general set of eyes does not notice, and I am the same way. What you are doing however is just saying you like something and another game is ruining the industry because you do not like it.

[Barry the Nomad]

Hey Eastside, you bought Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing didn't you?

How's it feel to be a casual mainstream gamer?  

Yeah, I've been playing it really trying to feel it out. Yes, it is a casual game.  It's not arcadey there's not much of an energy to it.  It is solid, clean and really well done for a casual game, but not much character to it.

I have fun with it but not in a way that is deeply satisfying or really addictive. This is the difference between a hardcore and a mainstream or casual game.

It doesn't really have that extra dimension...there's not much to set apart the masters from the above average.

If this were to be hardcore it would have to be 60fps and ramp up the energy to it, but it's not.. It's for everybody and I resent the compromise.. It is still fun but far from greatness, but then you will deny this extra dimension exists.

When is the last time a game made your palms sweat?

I have to disagree with this. SASAR has a very arcadey vibe. Reminds me of playing Hydro Thunder, Crazy Taxi or Outrun Online Arcade. I really don't understand how you cannot see the energy that SASAR has, the Monkey Ball and JSRF tracks make my palms sweat like crazy (well, I think I have a gland problem, as they sweat when I do a lot of things...)

And 60fps = hardcore? Ramp up the energy? Have you been pulling of triple boosts and been hitting every speed pad? The game goes at dizzying speeds when played right.

[crackdude]

Talking about mainstream and core gaming makes a lot more sense than casual/hardcore.

Example, is Uno a casual game? Why? Because it is a card game? Ok, is Mahjong casual? Seriously how many people can play Mahjong? Is it hardcore? Wat?

This is my opinion.

Nice stick MadeMan! :D

And what's a gamer's game anyway? It's such a wild thing to say.

[east of eastside]

update: I'm quitting gaming.

bye.

Again? Come on now... Hope I didn't offend you or anything.

And what about Yakuza 3?  

As for your question, the last time a game made my palms sweat was when my control pad overheated.
http://www.instantrimshot.com

Now a question of my own!
Would a mainstream gamer have built this?



(Yes I've just been looking for an excuse to show that off...)

I had a nervous breakdown, but I guess I'm back for more... Going down fighting on this whole cause..

Nice stick, my friend.  Well, yes, the wood is a little 'mainstreamy', put some graphite panels on it and give it some 'edge.'

[east of eastside]

Going by Eastside's logic, Halo 3 is more of a "Gamer's Game" than Yakuza 3. Think about it.

Halo 3 was designed by people who have all been playing games ever since they were tots and they are all at least in their early 30s now even the art directors and music composers are all gamers (true, look it up), Yakuza 3 is designed with half of the staff being cinematic directors.

Halo 3 has no commercialism OR any bald characters in it !!! Yakuza 3 has billboards on every street that are based off of real-life stuff and has tons of bald characters.

Halo 3 is based on places in space designed off of peoples imagination, Yakuza 3 is literally in real parts of the world with realistic mobsters, a cliche that has been done a billion times over. You can argue that being in space is generic somehow, but how many games have spores that turn into plant zombies? HUH? HUH?

See how much sense this makes when your logic is applied? My point still stands, you are just saying something is a specific way when it is just your opinion.

Of course once you play thousands of games by one developer you are going to notice similarities between them that the general set of eyes does not notice, and I am the same way. What you are doing however is just saying you like something and another game is ruining the industry because you do not like it.

Okay, I'm responding to your post to maintain a spirit of fairness and not be accused of dodging things...  Read it all (your post) carefully..

What you are doing however is just saying you like something and another game is ruining the industry because you do not like it.

If I can demonstrate perfect honesty and fairness, I will say, yeah, I'm doing that, but I think there is substance to what I'm saying beyond preference.

What makes Yakuza 3 'gamer's game' and Halo 'mainstream'?  Very simply, demographic.  Yakuza is going to be played by a very narrow, male, predominantly dedicated gaming demographic.  Halo, on the other hand, is very wide demographic game.  It's 'gameness' is diluted by commercialism.  Yeah, it is just too damn generic for me.  I don't play games just for the sake of playing..  It's just mechanics and arbitrary predetermined rewards for babies, who cares?  Yakuza 3 has art value, the aesthetic is better, it has a vibe and an art dimension that enhances the experience to me beyond just pointlessly playing a game like some marketing puppet dancing to the hand of his big corporate publishing master.

Don't ask me to explain a lot of this, because I don't really know what I'm saying.

[east of eastside]

MadeMan!

MadeMan!

MadeMan!

MadeMan!

MadeMan!

MadeMan!

*LOOK**LOOK**LOOK**LOOK**LOOK**LOOK**LOOK**LOOK**LOOK*

Mikami quote from Vanquish interview:

"There is a balancing act going on there," he says, referencing God Hand - clearly a project close to his heart. "That was a title I made very freely, but it didn't sell as well. Resident Evil was based more towards the commercial side of things; God Hand was at the other end of the scale.

Look at the distinction the artist Mikami makes: God hand, the artistic game made from his own creative expression, versus Resident Evil designed under influence of commerical parameters.

Notice the artful game 'didn't sell well'.

You see, I am saying something real!

You can not appreciate these things, it's your fault because you're 'mainstreamy'.

You guys don't know art like Yakuza 3 form corporate casual crap and mainstream mud like Halo and Turds of War and all the other crap you core mainsteams playing ruining the beautiful hobby people like me built in the 80's and 90's.

I've definitively won this whole argument, all of you can concede that to me now.

[Emmett The Crab]

I don't know about Halo being mainstream.  It was originally conceived by Bungie to be a follow-up to Marathon, on the Macintosh.  The Mac gaming community was/is a pretty small niche.  Once Microsoft bought Bungie, did that cause it to become commercial and generic, because it had the advertising muscle behind it to suddenly be a flagship launch title?

I also don't know how different it is from it's original conception, but as a Mac gamer at the time, I was excited at the innovation of having a vehicle driver and gunner playing co-op in a 1st person shooter.