Sony, MS, mainstream gaming and the end of Sega hardware

[Sega Uranus]

Yakuza is just a gangster story, so bland and unoriginal. The art is all fake, it is based off of real world stuff, so cliche. Half of the game is text, BORING, I want to play games where you get points in them, because I am a true gamer.

Why should we play mainstream crap like Shenmue, which sold over a million units in America alone? I want to play real games that are designed for gamers, like M&Ms Racing.

This is basically what you are saying, again it is just all your opinion. I do not see why you have to make fun of every game you do not like as if they are made by your worst enemies. They are just games, seriously who gives a fuck? Just play what you like and do not what does not appeal to you.

I mean, this is a forum and I am not a mod, so you are free to say whatever you will, but you obviously do not know what you are talking about if you are just going to pass off whole genres as "Casual" or "Mainstream" which for some reason make them terrible? All you are doing here is saying some titles are destroying the industry and making it sound like some of us are far less intelligent and distinguished than you, which I find extremely unsettling and uncalled for.

I dunno man, you are older than me, but I really need to tell you to just get over it and grow up. I never heard someone whine about such an insignificant thing in my whole life. If the industry was really in such bad shape then why are you still buying games every month? Heck, I know of at least two games coming out next month that are must buys for you on just one console. Seems to me the industry is doing really well!

[east of eastside]

This is basically what you are saying, again it is just all your opinion. I do not see why you have to make fun of every game you do not like as if they are made by your worst enemies. They are just games, seriously who gives a fuck? Just play what you like and do not what does not appeal to you.

That sound reasonable, but in my mind I make the links between the games I don't like kicking the games I do like to the curb. So, I have an axe to grind..

I mean, this is a forum and I am not a mod, so you are free to say whatever you will, but you obviously do not know what you are talking about if you are just going to pass off whole genres as "Casual" or "Mainstream" which for some reason make them terrible? All you are doing here is saying some titles are destroying the industry and making it sound like some of us are far less intelligent and distinguished than you, which I find extremely unsettling and uncalled for.

I dunno man, you are older than me, but I really need to tell you to just get over it and grow up. I never heard someone whine about such an insignificant thing in my whole life. If the industry was really in such bad shape then why are you still buying games every month? Heck, I know of at least two games coming out next month that are must buys for you on just one console. Seems to me the industry is doing really well!

Okay, remember I put the disclaimer: "this thread is just for fun, or something to that effect.."  This message board or any other is just a meaningless space to vent and recreate however without taking it seriously.  I get things directed at me all the time, that I just let whiz by me cuz I really don't care what Joe internet stranger is telling me..

On the other hand.. As a fair minded, moral individual it does concern me when I am upsetting or provocating some one, because it is never my intention...

I like you and Mademan and the other posters here, so I'm sorry if I've rubbed anyone the wrong way.  It is my style.. I'm a lot the same way in real life.. I'm a radical.  This might surprise you.. but I'm not a normal person.  I'm challenging.. I'm demanding..  However it might be that I come across condescending, but that is not how I'm saying anything.  The post I just directed to you was meant to be sarcastic and sardonic and self-deprecating.  I'm sorry if you took it in a way that was offending, I didn't intend that.

You see.. I'm really toned down already as I am..  I was allowed to be here on the condition that I toned down.  I am frustrated because I feel like I can't be a Sega fan here cuz it is just going to rub everyone the wrong way.  It is a sad reflection of the state of gaming that a Sega fan can't be a Sega fan on a Sega board.  A decade ago the Sega fans I posted with were like me.. Being a Sega fan really meant something.. they were real psycho's apart from the other gamers.  I've found some of these people again and I'm in the process of being approved to join there community and will be shortly moving on to raise hell there.

I get the "far less intelligent and distinguished than you" a lot too. I'm sorry, I have no intention of coming off that way.  I'm used to posting on Sega boards of the past that everyone pretty much bashed the holy hell out of each other and they didn't take it too seriously because that is how things were.  Those were the 'hardcore' days of the internet and gaming. I think that kind of reflects some of the points I've made about times changing.  I am an old school hardcore gaming psycho, you guys are more core mainstreams.  I don't get into the who is better than who stuff, we just don't resonate on the same frequency.. and that reflects in the different gaming attitudes and only substantiates what I am saying is real.

I'm the kind of guy with a cause.  My goal is too raise the energy and give an edge and then have others vibrate along with me and all the sudden we are kicking ass and making each other more intense and hardcore.  Again, that was the old Sega board style.  When I said Sega fans 10 years ago were scary, I wasn't exaggerating.. Imagine they used to tell me I was the best of the group (in terms of being mild).

In conclusion, I'm sorry for offending you or anyone.. go back and insert some one who is over the top and bizarre in your recollections of me rather than some one condescending.  If we can't have fun and create a good energy for each other and I'm creating negativity for you and others then I should go.

[Sega Uranus]

I was mad if anything because of how you would state something as fact without really saying why and then ignore points me and some others made. I was not trying to get a negative reaction, and I doubt you were either, it is just your style, I guess.

I mean, when you constantly bash a "Core" and "Mainstream" lifestyle and say how it is these type of people ruining the industry and then point out that people like me and MadeMang are these kind of people... Well, we are going to get annoyed.

I like to think I am pretty hardcore about the game industry in general, but usually for SEGA stuff. While I personally love the Halo series, I am not a general fan of FPSs or even that many games that sell well. I do not really want to go into WHY I think I am an extremely hardcore but open minded gamer, but I think a way I can prove that is that literally just today I recorded every little sound and song from every release of Virtua Racing just because I was in the mood for the game's music and I enjoy the style and how everything is presented.

Same with MadeMang, literally just in this page he said one of his favorite games of all time was the Shining Force III trilogy, you know, with the releases that never actually left Japan? I think it is pretty damn hardcore of him to even bother with something like that, and like he pointed out, he made his own arcade stick, and one before that even. I'd say he is just as deep in the industry as you, but just has a more varied taste, I suppose.

Anyways, my post is getting long so I will PM you some more on this. Like I said, I was not trying to get a negative reaction, I am sorry if I caused any harm or stress.

[crackdude]

This is just like that episode of The OC.


We should not be talking out opinions as factual data.
For example, I think that Sony was one of the main reasons for Sega leaving hardware and have my reasons to believe in that. Others here are convinced Sega auto-destruct and have data backing their opinions up. In the end we both may be somewhat right, and we traded some thoughts over it all and have a good conversation.
There is no need to generalize and call out the certain something is wrong and destroying the industry.
I think that Heavy Rain is destroying the marketability of other much better titles for example, but other users here really like the game. That's cool..

I think any game at all can be mainstream or core depending on how it is marketed. And do remember that the fact that is has a small demographics doesn't mean it's core (example: Barbie Horse Adventures, unless you play it really hardcorely).

[George]

Games can attract casual gamers and not be casual at all. I know people that would not play Bayonetta type games and love it, same with Viewtful Joe. The problem here is that you are trying to match people with games, that does not work. People are casual, those people go mostly for 'simple' and 'on the go' type games (aka arcadish, Ninendoish etc), does not mean those games cannot be enjoyed by us, the hardcore consumer.

If you play a lot of games, you are a hardcore gamer, if you buy a Wii for Wiifit you are a non-gamer, you bought the console as a exercise machine. Casual gamers are those people that play a game because their boyfriend or girlfriend bought the game or its on a site like facebook.

[MadeManG74]

I had a nervous breakdown, but I guess I'm back for more... Going down fighting on this whole cause..

Nice stick, my friend.  Well, yes, the wood is a little 'mainstreamy', put some graphite panels on it and give it some 'edge.'

Woah woah woah... Woah.

That's Tasmanian Oak my friend, have you seen how small and niche Tasmania is? People don't even realise it's part of Australia. So they gotta go down to this little island full of inbreds just to get to the trees, that's hardcore if I've ever heard it. It's not at all mainstreamy and corporate like Graphite it!    (Jokes)

As Sanus said, I don't appreciate being called not a true Sega fan or being marked as a casual gamer who is apparantly killing the industry (Shining Force III is a good example, you wouldn't believe how much trouble it is just to get those games running in english).

I'm just going to end by saying that while you talk about how much you want to play artsy and niche games, it's crazy that you bash and refuse to play Wii games because that console has a lot of those off beat style games you praise. I even remember you saying Brutal Legend was 'Mainstream' and 'Soulless' which leads me to believe you never played it, or just apply those words to anything that's not Japanese or made by Sega.

[Aki-at]

I am more of a hardcore SEGA fan than you all because I've imported two (With a third one soon) Yakuza games.

Oh and I am purchasing Yakuza 3 again.

That's how hardcore I am.

None of you are true Kazuma Kiryu Simulator fans.

[spoiler:1rri4t4l]Oh MadeMan tracked down Shining Force III I guess that is KINDA hardcore. He got the sequel though so that proves the series is a financial success SO TOO MAINSTREAM![/spoiler:1rri4t4l]

[ImSmartUrDum]

I wouldn't say Sony killed the Dreamcast, being niche doesn't necessarily equal failure.

The Neo Geo was niche, and never really a competitor to any of the mainstream consoles other than SNES and maybe Saturn -

but if you consider just now niche Neo Geo's appeal was, it didn't half do bad for itself over it's life span - sure SNK did eventually go bust and get bought over by playmore - they still managed to out-live SEGA in the same market.

So who's fault is it?

It's everyone's fault.  Anyone who tries to pin the 'death of sega hardware' on a specific cause is trying too hard.

Did Sony kill the Dreamcast?
They didn't kill the Dreamcast any more than Nintendo killed the Mega CD and 32x, or how Nintendo killed the Master System and Megadrive in Japan or how Sony killed the Saturn outside of Japan.

The only real success SEGA has ever seen is the Saturn in Japan, and the Genesis in America.  Through a combination of always being a failure and always being a failure, up against the big boys of the electronics industry, everyone sounded the death knell for SEGA - who many knew back in the day, stood absolutely no chance of ever being a successful console manufacturer.

If a product as mind numbing as a Neo Geo outlives yours, you have a problem.

[MadeManG74]

I wouldn't say Sony killed the Dreamcast, being niche doesn't necessarily equal failure.

The Neo Geo was niche, and never really a competitor to any of the mainstream consoles other than SNES and maybe Saturn -

but if you consider just now niche Neo Geo's appeal was, it didn't half do bad for itself over it's life span - sure SNK did eventually go bust and get bought over by playmore - they still managed to out-live SEGA in the same market.

Okay, I feel I should clear this up.

The Neo Geo AES (The console) was a flop, cut and dry. It wasn't necessarily because it was 'niche' so much as it was just retardedly expensive, as were it's games. Sure it was much more powerful than anything else, but it was also too expensive for most people.

NOW, the reason it saw releases all the way up until 2005 or whatever was not due to the console, but rather because the Arcade Machine (MVS) was hugely popular. The MVS and AES were basically the exact same machine, so whenever a new game was made for the popular arcade hardware, it cost them next to nothing to run off a few hundred copies or so of the console game as well (from the same factory too I believe). The games were sold direct by mail order to the few die-hard fans and that was it.

The only reason the console 'survived' as long as it did with new releases was just because it happened to be so similar to the still-popular arcade hardware.

[ImSmartUrDum]

But the same could be said for any of SEGA's consoles,
almost all of SEGA's consoles have had an arcade counterpart that was more or less the same - and even they are not as popular as the MVS.

Regardless of MVS and AES, Sega still sucked a dick and there is nothing that will ever change that.

The Neo Geo was a specialized product, it was akin to the Bugati of the gaming world, only in the Neo Geo's case your italian sports car has been swapped out for a Toyota with software problems - but the fan loyalty is still there!

L ater games for Naomi and the Atomiswave as well as Aurora, all run on hardware almost the same as Dreamcast,  while slightly more converasion would have been involved than a direct mvs to aes cart swap, the amount of cost and effort involved in porting such games would have been ridiculously small.

[MadeManG74]

But the same could be said for any of SEGA's consoles,
almost all of SEGA's consoles have had an arcade counterpart that was more or less the same - and even they are not as popular as the MVS.

Regardless of MVS and AES, Sega still sucked a dick and there is nothing that will ever change that.

I don't think you get what I was saying, the games (The actual cartridges) were 100% identical to the arcade boards. They could run off the arcade machine ROMS and then run off a few hundred cartridges at the same factory. It would have cost them next to nothing, so they could sell them via mail orders (no store would stock Neo Geo games anymore after a few years).

Sega consoles NEVER had that kind of compatibility, nor did they have any ONE board that they were compatible with. You couldn't run off Sega Saturn CDs using the exact same code used to make VF2 arcade boards for example. Remember the cuts to the backgrounds to let the game run on saturn? Not to mention the arcade boards were not CDs, it would have had to be a completely different production run.

Ditto the Dreacast, it was very very similar to the Naomi, but it wasn't an actual Naomi arcade machine like the AES WAS an MVS Machine in a box. And again, the arcade machine used Rom boards (or whatever you call the arcade game format), not 1GB discs that the dreamcast used. Again it would need to be a brand new production run, AND they would need to make concessions and changes to run it on Dreacast (think about how VF3tb didn't look as good as the arcade release for example) because the Naomi machine had more RAM than the Dreamcast did. Not to mention for both of these consoles Sega was moving through boards very quickly, from Model 1 through to Naomi in the space of two console generations. SNK had the Neo Geo MVS machine and stuck with it for many years.

To my knowledge there is no Console/Arcade machine relationship that was as similar as the Neo Geo counterparts, it really was a very unique situation.

[crackdude]

This conversation is getting to the point that I say

HOLD ON!
Sony didn't kill the Dreamcast.. IT'S STILL ALIVE cause there's like a game or two coming out each year!

[east of eastside]

Okay, here is a post from an IGN DC editor from 9 years ago...

http://boards.ign.com/dreamcast_general ... 2014776/p1

In mulling over this title, however, it occurred to me: Gamers, by and large, just do not exist any more. ...

And finally, gaming has become so huge that it is run by a bunch of people who have no idea why the gamer of old every existed, much less drove this industry to mainstream popularity with its sheer love for all things fun.

Yes, I'm afraid that the term "gamer" applies to less and less hobbyists in our neck of the woods with each passing day. Reason being that people who play games have lost both a sense of what makes games good and the belief that a game they've never heard of can actually be fun..

What we're left with is a bunch of marketing-driven yes-gamers who avoid anything without a Square logo or a 6 month television campaign, while some of gaming's greatest achievements fall by the wayside, and personally, I have had enough.. You guys have been given something awesome in the Dreamcast, and as such, it is high time you got off your cans and started appreciating one of the best console runs ever, before you and the lousy marketing efforts of game publishers run this system right into the ground. The only way you can do this, and even begin to approaching the Thrown of Gaming to beg the elders for forgiveness, is to hang your heads low, and start walking towards your local retailer to right the wrongs of your thankless generation.

Basically, the gist of it is this guy decrying the rise of mainstream gaming and the death of the old gamer and linking it to the death of DC.  It's the same theme as what I have spoken here.. it was common place to hear Sega fans talk this way back then.

It's just that it has been so many years now that people today don't realize this industry transition occurred.

[MadeManG74]

People have been complaining about 'casuals ruining the industry' as far back as the Sega Saturn, and probably much earlier too.

Eastside, I respect your opinion, but you can't prove a point by posting quotes from articles or whatnot. I could find quotes that say Halo is a work of art, or that Gears of War is the best game ever made, but that doesn't make them facts, same as Mikami saying that God Hand was more artistic than Resident Evil doesn't make it a better game.


As for Dreamcast still being 'alive' because some dude makes a game in his basement, if thats the definition you want to go by, then no console ever made has ever died. People still make games for Atari 2600 after all.
Look at this new NES game for example!
[youtube:3e80ahz9]aSv0P1oTWCo[/youtube:3e80ahz9]

[east of eastside]

http://retro.ign.com/articles/956/956296p1.html

another recent editorial saying the same thing:

Editorial: You Failed SEGA

I implore you to consider the legacy of SEGA's business-driven abandonment of games like Jet Set Radio Future. The tanking of the Dreamcast cannot be avenged, but nor should it be forgotten. So, think about the ghost of Panzer Dragoon before you put down that copy of Dead Space and pick up the latest Guitar Hero. And before you curse Activision for ditching games like Brutal Legend, look down and make sure you don't have the blood of Gunvalkyrie on your hands. Because if you do, you lack the righteousness needed to rail against that decision.

Spend smartly. Spend like the possibility of a new Jet Set Radio depends on it.

Mikami saying that God Hand was more artistic than Resident Evil doesn't make it a better game.

Mikami implied how the commercial considerations lower the art expression.  That is the point I'm making and is not an argument about which game is better. And it applies to the situation with DC, the fall of old Sega and the rise of mainstream gaming, but nobody here wants to make those connections...