Sonic Generations General Discussion

[jonboy101]

Good lord is this off topic. Why don't you guys start a thread for this? Or is the well of news really this dry?

[Sharky]

its so off topic you made jonboy come back!

[jonboy101]

Again! Cambridge was lovely by the way. Disappointed not to find eel pie, though.

[ROJM]

Yeah I think the credits are far more credible than what ROJM is claiming. Sonicretro has a great wiki page so go and check it out.

^post just related to the sonic 2 discussion. I don't know about the yakuza cost of development.

Really? So that means you'd believe the credits in the Moonwalker game that MJ was the one who soley designed everything to do with the arcade and genesis versions of the game, huh? puhleese. STI and members of Sonic team were responsible for Sonic 2's development not Naka, like i said he had a limited role.


 

And that's why I blame the top brass of SEGA. Naka and Sonic Team had already enough of Sonic and wanted to move with NiGHTS, Sadly SONIC makes money,  so the Top brass demand and  ever more Sonic's.

No you were blaming nagoshi,so cut the crap. And that's really the problem here. You have consistantly nit picked his titles for the last six months with absurd comments like BD was going to be crap or words to that effect or YAKUZA and its "terrible engine". I wouldn't mind if they were genuine criticisms but they aren't and yet you love to praise Naka san when he's just as bad or worse when it comes to certain games development.

Every Team will use the same engine (all be it and an improved one) for an sequel in most cases , unless there were issues with the main engine or the is a doubling of the frame rate called for (which can lead to complete engine and pipelines rewrites) . Your point about Fifa is silly too... Each FIFA costs EA a huge amount of money to make and the staff needed to make FIFA each year is simply huge, running on the same engine or not.

We already estabilshed that fact. The point is that a company doesn't make a engine for a potential franchise game with one game in mind they usually create it so they can keep tapping it for more games until they decide to create a new engine for the IP.
And as for cost?Not compared to the first engine it doesn't so the point still stands. And if you think that the team quickly rushed the scenario and all the details and elements of RGG2 under a year then you are either liar or naive.

You have yet to name the game, which Naka has never worked on, but that's credit for . So once and far all, name this game.

We have had this discussion countless times which i stated it so once and for all shut up and stop playing up to the mindless sonic fans who don't know much about anything. But keep banging on about it because I'm not intrested.

A mean the biggest production Nagoshi-san had ever worked on as Head of the Consumer Team . Meaning it cost more than Yakuza to make.  Mind you 25 to 30 million isn't that big a deal of Next Gen productions it's just the average

Yet KENZEN didn't cost 30 million so once and for all show the actual fact instead of passing a guess as a fact.

I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, but the whole "Yuji Naka isn't that great and he was not involved in the best selling classic title" just makes no sense to me whatsoever. Sonic CD was being created in the same period of time. Even though people claim that it's the best sonic game (I think mainly for it being on better and more capable hardware), there were tons of issues with sonic CD in the controls and physics, wich I assume some other guys tweaked upon from sonic 1. Yuji Naka was not involved.

Sonic 2 however felt just as polished if not better than sonic 1. Yuji Naka has also claimed in many interviews being behind the programming of all the moving and interacted objects. Just recently there have been many interviews with him being present in the 20th aniversary celebrations (sonic boom and Summer of sonic). With every question that involved programming, Iizuka would always point to Yuji Naka and he would thoroughly explain and answer the questions.

I really don't know where this Yuji Naka bashing is coming from. I actually think he was less involved at the time sonic's quality was declining.

And that's what i'd expect from a sonic fan whose blind to the facts. But don't believe me look in YN's personal history to see that he did actually leave Sega during/before sonic 2's development and came back late into it. Thats a fact. Its unbelivable how gulliable people are when it comes to naka san. "Oh he wasn't responsible for Sonic's downfall", when he personally oversaw much of the sonic series production since Adventure to Sonic 2006 when he left halfway and much of that game's development was more or less complete. The point is Naka is not instrumental in sonic's success it was a team effort and the team was responsible but no one would know that because an overated coder gets the credit for creating the series when he was just hired help. Now from Sonic Adventure onwards its the yuji naka show and not only were the games terrible but they hardly were as succesful. So we can all keep on this myth how Naka was this and that but the reality is that when it counted he wasn't up to the job.

[ROJM]

Good lord is this off topic. Why don't you guys start a thread for this? Or is the well of news really this dry?

WB Jonboy,kudos to the wandering king!

[jonboy101]

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Genesis&bl=y


Not to ruffle feathers or insult intelligence, but that's a fantastic history of sega right there. I haven't time to reread it this morning, but I'm fairly sure Sonic 2 was an STI project almost entirely and Naka left the company for a month or so over something stupid.

[Team Andromeda]

I haven't time to reread it this morning, but I'm fairly sure Sonic 2 was an STI project almost entirely and Naka left the company for a month or so over something stupid

SONIC II was programmed in the STI offices, mainly by the Japanese Team flown over.

So that means you'd believe the credits in the Moonwalker game that MJ was the one who soley designed everything to do with the arcade and genesis versions of the game, huh? puhleese. STI and members of Sonic team were responsible for Sonic 2's development not Naka, like i said he had a limited role.

. Next you'll be making out Evander Holyfield made the MD boxing  game and John Madden made and programmed the MD title. When you get a Celebrity Endorsement you're going to milk it for all it's worth, put their names on the front of the box and in most cases,  the games title too

Yuji Naka was head programmer for the 16 bit Sonic Titles and just because latter Sonic titles was programmed in STI offices and outside SEGA Japan HQ means nothing. Die Hard Arcade, Dynamite Deka 2, Alien Front Online were all programmed in the USA and what was left of STI They'll all still credited as AM#1 games and you would  have always seen Nakagawa-san handling the interviews and PR for the titles . people credit REZ as a Mizuguchi-san and SEGA title , even though it had SEGA USA Western staff working on it and the title like all UGA titles, wasn't programmed in SEGA HQ, but in Shibuya

In some cases a truly exceptionable talent will get highlighted more than other members of staff.
 You think Dave Perry drew Earth Worm Jim, much less Aladdin , yet he always gets all the credit for those tiles .You think  John Carmack was the head artist, level designer and made Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein all by himself . You think Suzuki-san  made VF, Out Run on his own, that Kodamas-san made Skies all by herself. 



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[ROJM]

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Genesis&bl=y


Not to ruffle feathers or insult intelligence, but that's a fantastic history of sega right there. I haven't time to reread it this morning, but I'm fairly sure Sonic 2 was an STI project almost entirely and Naka left the company for a month or so over something stupid.

it was longer than that, i'm digging up a magazine article which he says he left sega shortly after Sonic

SONIC II was programmed in the STI offices, mainly by the Japanese Team flown over.

. Next you'll be making out Evander Holyfield made the MD boxing  game and John Madden made and programmed the MD title. When you get a Celebrity Endorsement you're going to milk it for all it's worth, put their names on the front of the box and in most cases,  the games title too

Yuji Naka was head programmer for the 16 bit Sonic Titles and just because latter Sonic titles was programmed in STI offices and outside SEGA Japan HQ means nothing. Die Hard Arcade, Dynamite Deka 2, Alien Front Online were all programmed in the USA and what was left of STI They'll all still credited as AM#1 games and you would  have always seen Nakagawa-san handling the interviews and PR for the titles . people credit REZ as a Mizuguchi-san and SEGA title , even though it had SEGA USA Western staff working on it and the title like all UGA titles, wasn't programmed in SEGA HQ, but in Shibuya

In some cases a truly exceptionable talent will get highlighted more than other members of staff.
 You think Dave Perry drew Earth Worm Jim, much less Aladdin , yet he always gets all the credit for those tiles .You think  John Carmack was the head artist, level designer and made Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein all by himself . You think Suzuki-san  made VF, Out Run on his own, that Kodamas-san made Skies all by herself. 



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 Most of the names mentioned were mainly responsible for the project as a whole, Naka was never the leader of the sonic series until later on, so try again. Yet he gets the credit. Funny how you always dodge the point though, keep it up, I needed a laugh.

As for the MJ thing,endorsements yes but not soley crediting the entire creation of the game to one person that's an entire different kettle of fish. And you know what that means, genius? if they did it on one game they can easily do it for another which they did when Naka got credited for a game he had little involement in. This is all estabilshed fact yet we still get stupid sonic fans coming up here and trying to argue that he was involved and made the game for what it is. The fact is under the team dynamic Sonic was not only a better series but more profitable. Under Naka's leadership it went downhill fast.

[Team Andromeda]

Most of the names mentioned were mainly responsible for the project as a whole,

John Carmack has never designed a level in his life, Dave Perry wasn't a Disney artist much less a producer, Team Head or boss while @ Virgin. They're no more than special gifted programmers and ones that like Naka , got a lot of credit for making an game engine that allowed the Team designers to make things that people thought not possible, possible and so they'll got the lion share limelight.

As for the MJ thing,endorsements yes but not soley crediting the entire creation of the game to one person that's an entire different kettle of fish

What is the different between that to the likes of Madden, Tiger Woods Golf, or Colin McRae Rally and so on and a ton of other titles like Tom Clancy. You really think the likes Madden, Tom Clancy make the game themself's. 

Naka got credited for a game he had little involement in.

Here's a small detail. Play the  16 bit MD Sonic games and watch the end credits and see Naka credited as Head Program .. To make out Naka wasn't involved in the 16 bit Sonic titles is laughable at best, insulting at worst.


Now I done, before another thread get's derailed too much

 




 

[CrazyT]

@ROJM and Jonboys article

Hey, sorry for doubting any facts. I still disagree about Yuji Naka getting too much credits however. Even if he had only set the fundements and code of the physics for the sonic franchise, i'd still consider him a genius. One theory I did have was that he may not have ever been very passionate about designing games unlike other devs.

I'd like to read the said article. Also leaving a month doesn't mean he was gone throughout the whole project.

[jonboy101]

TA,   Aren't you contradicting yourself? It would seem that you're saying that people like MJ can be given credit out of proportion to their contribution, but Naka can't be? Sonic 2, like many of the spinoffs, was, to my memory, an almost entirely American product. Sonic 3 & k was the collaboration. Of course, I may be mistaken. My citation is the above article.


Crazytails, that's fair, but leaving a company for a month or longer while a game is produced in under nine months is a big deal and implies to me he wasn't exactly busting ass.

[Team Andromeda]

It would seem that you're saying that people like MJ can be given credit out of proportion to their contribution, but Naka can't be? Sonic 2, like many of the spinoffs, was, to my memory, an almost entirely American product. Sonic 3 & k was the collaboration. Of course, I may be mistaken. My citation is the above article.

Was Sonic called Yuji Naka SONIC ?. The press and SEGA built up Naka's roll, just like press built up Dave Perry roll due to brilliant code :you can hardly blame the programmers for that .  It happens with producers, designers ECT do people really think Yu Suzuki made all his games on his own, that Miyamoto-san makes Mario, Zelda, Z-Zero, Mario Kart, Star Fox all on his own, Cliff makes Gear Of War on his own ?

Has head programmer of Sonic , Naka name was always going to get talked about and it's hardly Naka's fault that SEGA promoted him, much less the press wanted to interview the man and find out how he was able to push consoles like the Mega Drive, Master System and Saturn so hard
btw I'm not the one making out that MJ didn't have nothing to do with MD Moonwalker Just making the point that when you get a big licences you will in most cases hype and promote it for all it's worth

[ROJM]

John Carmack has never designed a level in his life, Dave Perry wasn't a Disney artist much less a producer, Team Head or boss while @ Virgin. They're no more than special gifted programmers and ones that like Naka , got a lot of credit for making an game engine that allowed the Team designers to make things that people thought not possible, possible and so they'll got the lion share limelight.

What part of most don't you understand? Can you speak english let alone understand the meanings of the words in the english language? Most of the names you mentioned were in charge of the projects.

What is the different between that to the likes of Madden, Tiger Woods Golf, or Colin McRae Rally and so on and a ton of other titles like Tom Clancy. You really think the likes Madden, Tom Clancy make the game themself's. 

And please stop with your diversionary tactics. Madden,Tom Clancy and whoever didn't get a sole credit for creating their respective games, MJ got all the credit for MOONWALKER with NO mention on who really worked on the game. And you are actually proving my point because if they did get credited on anything it was for a honourary production credit like exceutive producer or some other contriubution which usually means they gave little contributrion to the game at all. And that's exactly what happened with Naka and his supposed role in Sonic 2.

Here's a small detail. Play the  16 bit MD Sonic games and watch the end credits and see Naka credited as Head Program .. To make out Naka wasn't involved in the 16 bit Sonic titles is laughable at best, insulting at worst.

Here we go spinning again, Sonic 2 isn't the whole series. Whenever you can't back up an argument you try to spin yourself out of it. You clearly lost this as well as the KENZEN debate, now go away and derail somebody else's thread.

@ROJM and Jonboys article

Hey, sorry for doubting any facts. I still disagree about Yuji Naka getting too much credits however. Even if he had only set the fundements and code of the physics for the sonic franchise, i'd still consider him a genius. One theory I did have was that he may not have ever been very passionate about designing games unlike other devs.

I'd like to read the said article. Also leaving a month doesn't mean he was gone throughout the whole project.

Hey no problem, naka's your fave developer i don't have a problem with that. My main beef is that i don't like someone putting down one sega producer while singing the praises of another sega producer like he's more perfect than the one he is putting down. When the reality is they both have their pluses and faults when it comes to game development. And then that same person is trying to portray himself as being neutral but really he has an insane agenda against the  former leader of AV with consistant putdowns, stupid criticisms of his engines and downright lies. I know you don't bash nagoshi and would judge them equally in their overall contribution to the company called Sega. Good or bad.

TA,   Aren't you contradicting yourself? It would seem that you're saying that people like MJ can be given credit out of proportion to their contribution, but Naka can't be? Sonic 2, like many of the spinoffs, was, to my memory, an almost entirely American product. Sonic 3 & k was the collaboration. Of course, I may be mistaken. My citation is the above article.


Crazytails, that's fair, but leaving a company for a month or longer while a game is produced in under nine months is a big deal and implies to me he wasn't exactly busting ass.

Well we all know TA contridicts himself, remember that whole 32x debate and his stance on that? Only to return months later saying that I was the one making out that it was sega of america's idea all along, even though you steped in and reminded him that it wasn't true? funny enough he's gone back to his original stance concerning that topic. If anyone thinks SOA can do anything without SOJ's sayso concerning a new hardware than they're being downright silly. Especially when the whole 32x project originated from SOJ in the first place.

[Team Andromeda]

Most of the names you mentioned were in charge of the projects.

Can you read End credits ?, Can you Finish games ?, What part of Program, Head/Cheif Program or Producer did/do you not understand?

Have a look at Sonic credits... by the time of Sonic III YU2 Naka-san wasn't just head programmer, but Producer too . Lsten to you though.... he had no nothing to with Sonic 2 ECT .

MJ got all the credit for MOONWALKER with NO mention on who really worked on the game

It's was called MJ Moonwalker, because that was the Film  the game was based on was called . I can't think of any PR, any Mag or any gamer that thought MJ made the game himself. Most gave 'SEGA' credit for the game, not MJ.

What next Peter Jackson and Peter Jackson alone  make King Kong on the 360, X-Box, Cube ECT...  ;D

And you are actually proving my point because if they did get credited on anything it was for a honourary production credit

John Madden on the latter games, got very much involved and far more hands on, but even on the 2nd Madden game (read:1st Mega Drive version) old John wouldn't agree to put his name unless the  development team up the number of players, from the then 8 to 11 (anything less wasn't football to John) , which gave the programmers some issues .

One day you might actually know what you're talking about, or at least  be well briefed on the subject matter in hand . Instead of the need of endless insults .... We can but hope.

My main beef is that i don't like someone putting down one sega producer while singing the praises of another sega producer

1) Name me this game that Naka took credit for, but never worked on . 2) If there's one person who's name is everywhere and talks about games he didn't really have much do with Its Nagoshi-san, Hell Nagoshi-san is in Sonic 06 credits  and all the Sonic games since Naka left , shall we blame him for the mess that was Sonic 06 ?

Here we go spinning again, Sonic 2 isn't the whole series.

You tried to make out Naka didn't have much to do with Sonic II (nobody else) One look at the game credits see's that like for all the 16 bit Sonic 'Mega Drive' titles (1,2,3 S&K) Naka was the head programmer to all of them and producer to two of them .

Now either you can't read end Credits, can't finish the 16 Bit titles, or never actually owned them. I really couldn't careless what the actual reason is.....The facts are Naka was head Programmer to Sonic 1, 2, 3 S&K, and also producer to Sonic III and S&K.

FACT

remember that whole 32x debate and his stance on that

Lets remember your stance , that the 32X version of VF looked better than the Saturn version. Which in anyone book, is hopelessly wrong and  just laughable

Only to return months later saying that I was the one making out that it was sega of america's idea all along,

The 32X add -on idea was SOA call . SEGA Japan idea was to go with a improved Mega Drive (not add on  but a standard console, like the PC Eng  supergrafx ) and the Jupiter plan which was the Saturn minis the CD-Rom for those that couldn't afford the price of Saturn.

If anyone thinks SOA can do anything without SOJ's sayso concerning a new hardware than they're being downright silly. Especially when the whole 32x project originated from SOJ in the first place

You're so laughable . The paymasters in any multinational corporation will always have the final say . That doesn't mean that, the different division's aren't allowed to push on with idea's they think with work best for their particular Market.

Next you be telling me that SEGA Cable channel was all SOJ (even though it only ever came out in America ) that Activator was SOJ (even though its bigger than most Japanese living rooms)  That SOJ deserver all the credit for making Joe Montana (a sport with hardly any following in Japan ) , selling the Mega Drive and Genesis to the West ... Don't thank SOA for SEGA Technical Institute, but thank SOJ instead 

Everything all thanks to SEGA Japan, not SEGA Europe or America.


Now I'm really done with your twisted logic, hopelessly incorrect facts and endless insults . I'll much rather talk about SONIC new games, but listen to you and 'some' other's . Sonic Team were the Joke of SEGA  were the laughing stock and any talk of them upping their game and got some great 'new strategies' so very wrong.








 

[jonboy101]

Again, I think you're missing the point. I think you're both agreeing that people can become overly associated with the project relative to their involvement, whether by accident or design.


I will also reiterate that sonic 2 was STI, for the most part, not sonic team.