SEGA hit by 73 people layoff, more focus on digital games

[Team Andromeda]

Well no doubt that was a factor. .3D. On the other hand, Saturn was going to be a 2D powerhouse until PSX forced Sega's hand into console 3D. That is something to consider. Playstation certainly upped the hardware arms race making it harder for arcades to stay ahead of consoles, you will agree. Going to find that article.

The Sega Saturn was always meant to be able to handle 3D, That is why the CPU was changed every early in . Long before anyone knew SONY was making its own Console, SEGA was developed the Model 1 board and was working on Model 2 which had graphics way beyond any console or planned console . Sony Arcade hardware was using it’s the PS chipset, totally different to SEGA approach.

SONY upped the Hardware battle in the home, In the Arcades It was SEGA fighting with NAMCO.

But why then didn't Saturn and DC become the FPS machines of their time? Sega catered to a different audience primarily, MS/XBOX/FPS and the new Halo audiences, on the other hand, went hand and hand.

For a few reasons , namely both console were already seen as losing the Hardware Battle and they came out too late in the Console lifespan to really make a Difference ,and also they weren’t console exclusive to SEGA.

And there is more to the 360 or X-Box than just HALO, as there was to the Mega Drive than just SONIC . They helped kicked start the machines, but you then need a broad range of games and 3rd party support , Sadly that is what SEGA lacked with the Saturn and DC.

Doesn't Sony get any credit for dooming Saturn? Saturn was more hardcore and less mainstream than PS1. Right there you can see the beginning of an audience shift.

SEGA did more to doom the Saturn than SONY with that piss poor joke that was the 32X . But worst than that was SquareSoft , that’s what really killed SEGA . If FF7 had come out on the Saturn, that combined with VF would have killed the PS stone cold dead in Japan. I think people forget how much the Saturn was killing the PS in Japan , until that bloody FF7 demo hit Japan.


32X and Not getting Square to develope on the Saturn was SEGA mistakes, not SONY .  

Or that PS2 sold as a DVD player first when the launch titles were too few in number and quality against DC's awesome line-up. But none of that matters to, TA.

You think SEGA wouldn't have made a massive play on the DVD if the DC had it as its storage ?. Wake up it wasn't inthe DC due to timing and cost , that's it.

it is all about money in the end and they want games that will fill DVD and blu-ray discs and justify HD tv's. They are not a game company

You think SEGA isn't in the game to make MONEY ?. is there any point in having a debate with someone who things Quality games like Drakes II or God of War are there just to fill up DVD or BluRay space ?  .

Btw, Do SEGA make High Def Arcade Hardware, High Def Games, didn't SEGA make a huge play onthe CD Medium with the SEGA/Mega CD . What was it now, Welcome to the Next Level .

There was absolutely no allusion by Sega that DC was a game machine first and only marketed to gamers first and only. Totally different story with PS2 and DVD.

That's why SONY spent millions and millions developing the Emotion Engine & Graphics Synthesizer ? , has well as millions and millions in In-House productions . When all it needed to do was just make a DVD player, which I thought SONY also did ?

[George]

TA pretty much covered everything. Saying 'this is marketed as a bluray' is like saying that the Genesis used 'stereo sound' , 'high definition graphics' and 'blast processing' (aka made up) to sell consoles. They did. You can't get caught up in marketing. Its all BS.

SEGA must want to sell TVs.

SEGA was also one of the biggest companies that wanted to push CD-Roms and CDs as a console format in the 90's, also one of the first developers to start up 3-D, that you loath.

[Team Andromeda]

SEGA was also one of the biggest companies that wanted to push CD-Roms and CDs as a console format in the 90's, also one of the first developers to start up 3-D, that you loath.

Spot on, and SEGA wasted a hell of a lot of many going the FMV route, instead of using all that extra space to make full games. SEGA more than most pushed 3D into the Arcades, long before SONY, Also SEGA allowed FPS to appear on the Mega Drive and Mega CD, and even pushed,produced and published DOOM as a reason to buy the 32X , all long before HALO and X-Box

[George]

He also did not take into account that DC pioneered the 'online spectrum' and 'downloadable content' for games on console. They also did the whole 'mmo' thing with PSO and competitive open online FPS with Quake III (opening to play with PC users).

SEGA even sponsored Quake III Arena tournaments
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html

Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.

[Team Andromeda]

He also did not take into account that DC pioneered the 'online spectrum' and 'downloadable content' for games on console. They also did the whole 'mmo' thing with PSO and competitive open online FPS with Quake III (opening to play with PC users).

SEGA even sponsored Quake III Arena tournaments
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html

Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.

SEGA also beat MS and SONY to LIVE Arcade and PSN, with its own classic Mega Drive and PC-Eng download service for the Dreamcast. You quite right about Quake III, SEGA made a massive deal about it , its also was making a BIG play on that is had Half-Life coming to the DC, and even recommended Captivation Digital to do the port , after they produced a number of tech demo for the set 2 Dreamcast development. Lets remember too SEGA made a huge play on the fact that Dreamcast had Windows CE, even had Bill Gates on Video at the Dreamcst launch party, and boasted that most PC to DC ports could be done in a matter on months.

Its rather silly to blame SONY. I blame SONY for lying  about its Online PS2 plains, showing off far too much fake Footage . People need to wake up to the fact that SEGA messed up with the 32 Bit battle, and that's what really cost SEGA dear, even before the DC came out, most saw SEGA as finished. And all this talk of mainstream makes me laugh, when the Mega Drive was the benchmark for a mainstream console.

[Sega Stylista]

SEGA did more to doom the Saturn than SONY with that piss poor joke that was the 32X . But worst than that was SquareSoft , that’s what really killed SEGA . If FF7 had come out on the Saturn, that combined with VF would have killed the PS stone cold dead in Japan. I think people forget how much the Saturn was killing the PS in Japan , until that bloody FF7 demo hit Japan.

So, if 32X had never existed Sega was going to have the financial resources to sell a PS1 class console at $100 cheaper than Saturn was originally intend to launch? It was going to develop a GTE and a R3000 class processor?  What does Square and 32X have to do with one company having a approx $30 billion dollar market cap at the time and the other like $3 billion? Could it be Sony provided Square some financial incentive in addition to superior hardware for their new style of presentation?

32X and Not getting Square to develope on the Saturn was SEGA mistakes, not SONY .

Sony being the larger more powerful company with the deeper pockets and world leading consumer electronics brand was Sega's fault?

A lot of what people accuse Sega of getting wrong is a consequence of them being outclassed by Sony or forced to react to it in a less than ideal way. And I say that in no defense of Sega or denial of their incompetence and poor execution.

What about Sony having the games that were resonating with an aging gaming audience and drawing in new mainstream ones defining a new generation of gamers?  Sega style games largely rooted in arcades gave way to the new more cinematic, presentational, longer, story driven style of Sony games.

You think SEGA wouldn't have made a massive play on the DVD if the DC had it as its storage ?. Wake up it wasn't inthe DC due to timing and cost , that's it.

You missed the point of the statement. It wasn't about Sega not being able to afford DVD, but the audiences that were buying PS2, "the future of entertainment" and not DC the game console.

You think SEGA isn't in the game to make MONEY ?. is there any point in having a debate with someone who things Quality games like Drakes II or God of War are there just to fill up DVD or BluRay space ?  .

The point is the style of those games are such to cater to the mainstream audiences they are intended to profit from.  There is nothing hardcore about their gameplay. Little technique to them, they're Sony style. They are boring, there is no intensity or skill to their gameplay. It's just an interactive cinematic weak in style and play.

He also did not take into account that DC pioneered the 'online spectrum' and 'downloadable content' for games on console. They also did the whole 'mmo' thing with PSO and competitive open online FPS with Quake III (opening to play with PC users).

SEGA even sponsored Quake III Arena tournaments
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html

Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.

So? Those all amounted to nothing without the massive marketing budgets of Sony and MS to bring them to the mainstream.  It was MS with Halo and Activision and EA that brought FPS to the mainstream in a significant way, not Sega.

Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.
SEGA also beat MS and SONY to LIVE Arcade and PSN, with its own classic Mega Drive and PC-Eng download service for the Dreamcast. You quite right about Quake III, SEGA made a massive deal about it , its also was making a BIG play on that is had Half-Life coming to the DC, and even recommended Captivation Digital to do the port , after they produced a number of tech demo for the set 2 Dreamcast development. Lets remember too SEGA made a huge play on the fact that Dreamcast had Windows CE, even had Bill Gates on Video at the Dreamcst launch party, and boasted that most PC to DC ports could be done in a matter on months.

Yeah, but it's all really irrelevant when you realize that without the massive marketing budgets and world class brands of Sony and Microsoft those efforts didn't amount to anything and had little to no mainstream presence.

Its rather silly to blame SONY. I blame SONY for lying  about its Online PS2 plains, showing off far too much fake Footage . People need to wake up to the fact that SEGA messed up with the 32 Bit battle, and that's what really cost SEGA dear, even before the DC came out, most saw SEGA as finished. And all this talk of mainstream makes me laugh, when the Mega Drive was the benchmark for a mainstream console.

No, TA. What you need to make the connections about is that regardless whatever Sega would have done in the 32bit era or 16bit era before it, it had no chance in hell of competing with Sony and MS in the long run. Please accept this.  And none of that is possible without the mainstream audiences to subsidize it, mainstream audiences that weren't about playing arcadey or quirky Sega games.  MD existed when gaming was still a niche industry, plz, TA.

SEGA was also one of the biggest companies that wanted to push CD-Roms and CDs as a console format in the 90's, also one of the first developers to start up 3-D, that you loath.

Spot on, and SEGA wasted a hell of a lot of many going the FMV route, instead of using all that extra space to make full games. SEGA more than most pushed 3D into the Arcades, long before SONY, Also SEGA allowed FPS to appear on the Mega Drive and Mega CD, and even pushed,produced and published DOOM as a reason to buy the 32X , all long before HALO and X-Box

You guys are getting off tangent with your weak arguments. Sega having an incentive to see the cheaper CD format adopted doesn't contradict anything I've said.  I don't hate 3D, wtf?  Maybe I said something like 2D could have lived a little bit longer before 3D became dominant in the console space.  I do think the 3D display crap being hyped today is a gimmick, yeah.

You both get all distracted with Sega's mistakes and neglect to realize that even had it not made any of them there is no way in hell Sega would be a console maker today competing with the likes of Sony and Microsoft. Not even Nintendo was able to compete with them being forced to resort to a gimmicky piece of shit, "troll on gaming" game system to stay alive.

If Nintendo had to sell a high end HD 3D system at a loss or small margin guess what their stock worth would be?  About $5 rather than $30.

Why can the other guys do it? Because they have the other divisions to offset the losses.  Do you see the obvious that there is no way in hell Sega could be competing this gen no matter what it did in the past?

Sega style games don't resonate with mainstream western audiences (unless their kiddy crap Sonic games) today that has been the whole point of the discussion.   Arcades died largely for the same reason.

Sony and MS in gaming = rise of corporate mainstream gaming and the end of Sega.

class dismissed.

[Team Andromeda]

So, if 32X had never existed Sega was going to have the financial resources to sell a PS1 class console at $100 cheaper than Saturn was originally intend to launch? It was going to develop a GTE and a R3000 class processor? What does Square and 32X have to do with one company having a approx $30 billion dollar market cap at the time and the other like $3 billion? Could it be Sony provided Square some financial incentive in addition to superior hardware for their new style of presentation?

SEGA  Saturn only cost more than the PS for a very short time, very early in SEGA Japan  cut the price , when the new motherboards came into to Play and RAM, went down in Price (People forget Sega Saturn was 2nd only to Neo Geo CD for the ammount of system RAM).
 By the time of the white Saturn and yet another new Mother Board SEGA was able to slash the cost of the Saturn way below that of the PS in Japan, so much so,  I think in 2 days SEGA sold over 70,000 Saturn's (those were the days huh ?) . SEGA had more than enough money not just to develop one console, but 2 . Dural and Blackbelt at the same time , The amount of money that SEGA wasted over the years is tragic. SEGA would have done what its always done, and used off the shelf parts, or deal with the likes of Hitachi to power its Hardware (very much like MS)

Square have everything to do with the death of the Saturn in Japan, and the 32X everything to do with SEGA losing the 32bit Hardware battle .
 If was 'just about money in the Bank as key to success.. Microsoft would have crushed everyone with the X-Box , killed the Wii this generation , destroyed the I-Pod with Zune,  HD DVD would have killed BluRay and been a complete success, and SEGA would have been crushed to death in 16 bit days by Nintendo.  Sony and NCL need not bother, because MS have more money inthe bank than sense.

Like with all products you need Retail and Market support, and money doesn't guarantee that.

Sony being the larger more powerful company with the deeper pockets and world leading consumer electronics brand was Sega's fault?

If that's the case, SEGA would have been crushed right at the start by Nintendo. Please stop the silly talk.

Sega style games largely rooted in arcades gave way to the new more cinematic, presentational, longer, story driven style of Sony games.

SEGA were making less and less Arcade games for its own systems in the Mega Drive days, as people just weren't willing to pay £40 for a simple Arcade ports . That's why SEGA produced or published RPG even for the Master System. BTW Sony PS was a machine that had a number of Arcade ports you know.

It wasn't about Sega not being able to afford DVD,

There was lovely little interview with Hideki Sato before the launch  of the DC. When asked why the DC didn't have a DVD drive, he was quite honest.  Timing and costs were the 2 major issues why it wasn't included.

There is nothing hardcore about their gameplay.

What makes a game Hardcore, for a start ? . You going to sit there and tell me that the likes of Aladdin , Sonic on the Mega Drive weren't mainstream ?, and that one really needs skill to finish Sonic ? much less World Of Illusion.

Maybe you should play God of war 1 & II and come back and say they don't need any skill to finish them. Play ICO, Shadow of the Colossus and come back and tell me they're mainstream games and SONY jumping on the Bandwagon, and weak in style.

It was MS with Halo and Activision and EA that brought FPS to the mainstream in a significant way, not Sega.

Try it was also the likes of Williams, Acclaim, Dreamworks  ECT , Who enjoyed great success with Doom, Alien Trilogy, Medal Of Honour, Turok on 32/64  Bit system , and lets not forget Rare 7  Goldeneye on the N64. Not only did that have a massive impact and truly opened the console world to FPS, it sill remains one of the best selling FPS, with betters sales that the Original HALO.

Lets now all hate GoldenEye  :roll:

Yeah, but it's all really irrelevant when you realize that without the massive marketing budgets and world class brands of Sony and Microsoft those efforts didn't amount to anything and had little to no mainstream presence.

No it isn't. You can push a product as much as you want, if no one wants it, its doomed to fail.  SEGA used to spent millions and millions have a world class brand in the 16 Bit days , all that was down to money was it ?.
 if it was how the hell SEGA beat Nintendo in America I'll never know , how SEGA let Capcom make the Arcade sensation that was Street Fighter II I'll never know (when SEGA is a bigger corp, both inthe home and Arcade).

Why is SEGA having its Butt kicked by Capcom this generation or last generation then > SEGA a far bigger corp , with more staff and resources . Yet came nowhere near Capcom sales for this or last Generation .


Don't tell me its all SONY fault  :roll:

[George]

Blame it on Sony. They where not THAT big when they launched the PSone. They had no name in the gaming industry and Playstation brand did not mean anything. They were going against SEGA and Nintendo. Heavy weights in the industry.

This is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.

Having so many gaming flops (that 5th gen and 4th gen) really made consumers weary of spending money on a console that is not 'proved' itself. It took awhile for Sony to prove itself. Its not like they came out and sold billions and just sat there counting cash.

Sony's console came out in 1994, did not reach mainstream success till 1997 when they released Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 (1998), MGS (1998). Those titles pushed them over the top.

SEGA gave up on the Saturn in 1997, when the President of SEGA said that the console was not SEGA's future. Sorry, but instead of fighting on and trying to secure exclusives and make their platform have more games for consumers, they decided to not support it by not releasing genres of games and releasing 'limited quantities' of games fans wanted.  

SEGA of America really killed the Saturn, if the thing sold as well as Dreamcast did in America it would have lasted the generation and came in at 2nd.

[Team Andromeda]

his is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.

Spot on Post , How did NEC one of the biggest companies in the word,  came nowhere in America with the Turbo Graph , 2nd with the PC-Eng and then a poor distance 3rd/4th in Japan with the PC-FX When it had more money than SEGA or NCL combined, and was even bigger than SONY at the time (or so I believe) .NEC were so big and had so much money , it should have killed SEGA and NCL from the get go

If its about money, why didn't Shenmue become to the best selling game ever made. Not many game projects even now have 70 million dollars lavished  on them. Money doesn't always talk

Sony's console came out in 1994, did not reach mainstream success till 1997 when they released Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 (1998), MGS (1998). Those titles pushed them over the top.

Yep  FF7 had a massive impact in Japan and killed SEGA almost overnight . Big hitters like RE 2 were a massive deal, as was the wide spread easy of modding the PS at that time . The sad fact is , gamers,3rd parties and retail had enough of SEGA at that time

SEGA gave up on the Saturn in 1997, when the President of SEGA said that the console was not SEGA's future. Sorry, but instead of fighting on and trying to secure exclusives and make their platform have more games for consumers, they decided to not support it by not releasing genres of games and releasing 'limited quantities' of games fans wanted.

That move still Hurts . Yeah lets get SEGA fans ready for next console, by telling them you wasted money on the Saturn, we're not going to bring its best games over, do your self a favour, and buy a PS or N64 in the mean time . That's a great way to sell your 32bit console to America.

SEGA of America really killed the Saturn, if the thing sold as well as Dreamcast did in America it would have lasted the generation and came in at 2nd

[/quote][/quote]  Yep, SEGA were never going to be number one, but with mess up that was the N64 . SEGA had a great chance of being a strong number 2 in the West  (even number 1 in Japan).

To blame SONY for everything is silly and not looking at the whole picture objectively

[Sega Uranus]

Sega style games don't resonate with mainstream western audiences (unless their kiddy crap Sonic games) today that has been the whole point of the discussion.   Arcades died largely for the same reason.

Yes, this explains why Daytona USA is the most successful arcade racing game of all time.

Now tell me, how have games like The House of the Dead, Crazy Taxi, Streets of Rage, Virtua Fighter, Phantasy Star, Shinobi and Puyo Puyo became huge successes in all regions to only name a few? Not to mention that games like Shenmue were a much larger success outside of Japan, which crushes your point entirely.

Also, tons of their kiddy games fail. Billy Hatcher was supposed to be a whole new brand image, Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll was the first very kiddy game in the series, guess what? It was the ONLY flop in the entire franchise so far. Same with Virtua Quest, a complete bomb.

[Sega Stylista]

If was 'just about money in the Bank as key to success.. Microsoft would have crushed everyone with the X-Box , killed the Wii this generation , destroyed the I-Pod with Zune,  HD DVD would have killed BluRay and been a complete success, and SEGA would have been crushed to death in 16 bit days by Nintendo.  Sony and NCL need not bother, because MS have more money inthe bank than sense.

Like with all products you need Retail and Market support, and money doesn't guarantee that.

Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money"  Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period. All that Sega ever managed to do in the eyes of mainstream audiences since its peak years in the 16it days was tarnish their reputation.

SEGA were making less and less Arcade games for its own systems in the Mega Drive days, as people just weren't willing to pay £40 for a simple Arcade ports . That's why SEGA produced or published RPG even for the Master System. BTW Sony PS was a machine that had a number of Arcade ports you know.

Yeah, but Sega style games were losing to 'Sony style' games that were drawing in the mainstream audiences. Nobody but people like us gave a fart about Saturn's niche hardcore offerings.

What makes a game Hardcore, for a start ? . You going to sit there and tell me that the likes of Aladdin , Sonic on the Mega Drive weren't mainstream ?, and that one really needs skill to finish Sonic ? much less World Of Illusion.

Street Fighter 2 achieved mainstream appeal yet was a hardcore game based on the game design being made first to appeal to hardcore game audiences.  Uncharted has to sell to both dedicated and less dedicated gamers. The gameplay really never demands that much, isn't precise or unforgiving like old platformers and has no pace, tempo or energy to it, little skill or challenge of mastery, terrible replayability.  To me, personally, it is a pretty but boring game that expresses nothing to me through out all its elements.  It is a quintessential 'mainstream' game.  Whether a game is hardcore or not is all about who it is going to appeal to. A game can be hardcore just on 'feel' regardless whether it has mainstream support or not.

Maybe you should play God of war 1 & II and come back and say they don't need any skill to finish them. Play ICO, Shadow of the Colossus and come back and tell me they're mainstream games and SONY jumping on the Bandwagon, and weak in style.

I played GoW to completion and just remember how boring and generic it all was.  I remember some challenge to some of the last levels but it just didn't 'feel' hardcore so I deem that it is not. Very generic artistically and the gameplay was never 'alive'.  Bet your lovin' these responses. . . :mrgreen:

It was MS with Halo and Activision and EA that brought FPS to the mainstream in a significant way, not Sega.

Try it was also the likes of Williams, Acclaim, Dreamworks  ECT , Who enjoyed great success with Doom, Alien Trilogy, Medal Of Honour, Turok on 32/64  Bit system , and lets not forget Rare 7  Goldeneye on the N64. Not only did that have a massive impact and truly opened the console world to FPS, it sill remains one of the best selling FPS, with betters sales that the Original HALO.

Lets now all hate GoldenEye  :roll:

Blah, "great success" is not the massive mainstream sales that these current FPS' have.  Williams stuff, that I always appreciated, was barely known to mainstream audiences.  Goldeneye doesn't even come close to what the Halo series has achieved. Are you sure about that sales statistic, better than Halo 1? I seriously doubt it.

Halo and CoD have achieved 10's of millions in sales more than all those other early day fps combined, it's all about the corporations and the marketing dollars behind them. Who pioneered them is irrelevant.

Yeah, but it's all really irrelevant when you realize that without the massive marketing budgets and world class brands of Sony and Microsoft those efforts didn't amount to anything and had little to no mainstream presence.

No it isn't. You can push a product as much as you want, if no one wants it, its doomed to fail.  SEGA used to spent millions and millions have a world class brand in the 16 Bit days , all that was down to money was it ?.
 if it was how the hell SEGA beat Nintendo in America I'll never know , how SEGA let Capcom make the Arcade sensation that was Street Fighter II I'll never know (when SEGA is a bigger corp, both inthe home and Arcade).

In 2000: Sony market cap--$116 billion, Sega $3.5 billion, Nintendo $15 to $20 billion. LoL at however the hell you think Sega was going to compete with Sony with that size and the world best brand. Sega, Nintendo and Capcom were rivals all in the same industry. . . your really straying off course here?

TA, stop acting like the Sega brand at its peak could come even close to comparing what the Sony brand is.  Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega.  Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.
 

Why is SEGA having its Butt kicked by Capcom this generation or last generation then > SEGA a far bigger corp , with more staff and resources . Yet came nowhere near Capcom sales for this or last Generation .

Sega divorced of Sammy is only like $1.5 billion company, really not that much larger financially than Capcom.  Besides this argument doesn't make sense, they're competing on software this has nothing to do with Sony and Sega in a console war.

Incidentally, why is Capcom 'kicking Sega's butt'?  Great mainstream appeal.

Don't tell me its all SONY fault  :roll:

It's not really what I am saying, fault has negative connotations, more like 'consequence'.  The video game industry grew up from its niche core to a mainstream one where Sony and MS rule and Nintendo bottom feeds with degenerative kiddy and casual troll of the market.  Sega didn't have pokemon, gb/gba and DS to survive like they did.

[Sega Stylista]

Blame it on Sony. They where not THAT big when they launched the PSone. They had no name in the gaming industry and Playstation brand did not mean anything. They were going against SEGA and Nintendo. Heavy weights in the industry.

Sony was a giant when it launched PS1, it was the world leading consumer electronic brand. Nintendo and Sega were kings of a niche industry. Sony was the global mainstream electronic giant with the brand sophistication and reputation.

This is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.

Apple wasn't cool in the eyes of the gaming market or going to be equated with video games from a mainstream perspective.

Having so many gaming flops (that 5th gen and 4th gen) really made consumers weary of spending money on a console that is not 'proved' itself. It took awhile for Sony to prove itself. Its not like they came out and sold billions and just sat there counting cash.

Sony's console came out in 1994, did not reach mainstream success till 1997 when they released Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 (1998), MGS (1998). Those titles pushed them over the top.

Practically 1995 in Japan and fall 95 in America and by the time N64 launched a year later it was clear Sony owned the market and not because PS1 was first but hot and taking off in a new direction and drawing a new audience.

SEGA gave up on the Saturn in 1997, when the President of SEGA said that the console was not SEGA's future. Sorry, but instead of fighting on and trying to secure exclusives and make their platform have more games for consumers, they decided to not support it by not releasing genres of games and releasing 'limited quantities' of games fans wanted.  

SEGA of America really killed the Saturn, if the thing sold as well as Dreamcast did in America it would have lasted the generation and came in at 2nd.

Strategic retreat in the face of a total domination.  Sony killed Sega.  Your saying it all there. . . the stuff they decided not to release wasn't mainstream enough to justify it. There was no 'fighting on' George. At that point it was about 'cutting your loses'. I'm serious.

Saturn was dead from the start. All it ever had that the mainstream consumer might have barely cared about was the Virtua series games and even they were far behind Sony's more popular with the mainstream offerings, that were setting a style that was less arcadey and more presentational, cinematic, and story drive.

DC was an irresponsible move, really. They should have gone software only in 98 from an investor perspective.

Sony killed Sega, George.  I don't have to say that in a negative fashion either, it was a natural consequence of industry growth.  Contrary to what you may think I like and admire Sony, its just that my tastes in gaming are more old school hardcore than core mainstream, which is what this discussion has been about all this time.

I would be super happy if a style rich, gameplay centric game as alive a Jet came out for PS3 tomorrow.

[Sega Stylista]

his is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.

Spot on Post , How did NEC one of the biggest companies in the word,  came nowhere in America with the Turbo Graph , 2nd with the PC-Eng and then a poor distance 3rd/4th in Japan with the PC-FX When it had more money than SEGA or NCL combined, and was even bigger than SONY at the time (or so I believe) .NEC were so big and had so much money , it should have killed SEGA and NCL from the get go

No. Not 'spot on' at all there, TA, my friend.

You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC? That most mainstream-tards couldn't even recognize or don't know the fuck about it if they do?

Please! Slow down there, fella.

Did NEC go after mainstream western audiences with their shitty little obscure, hardcore consoles?  Making my points and lovin' it!

If its about money, why didn't Shenmue become to the best selling game ever made. Not many game projects even now have 70 million dollars lavished  on them. Money doesn't always talk

Never been my point that it is all about money. It's all about a combination of

BRAND/MONEY/MAINSTREAM APPEAL

 and Sony and MS win that hands down against Nintendo and Sega.

Shenmue? I love it when you make my point in attempting to counter argue. $70 million dollars and it didn't sell because it had no  mainstream appeal.  Yet Rockstar's turd does all on mainstream appeal.  See the difference?  And who caused the industry to be that way?!

CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sega Stylista]

Almost lost your post there on the last page.  

Sega style games don't resonate with mainstream western audiences (unless their kiddy crap Sonic games) today that has been the whole point of the discussion.   Arcades died largely for the same reason.

Yes, this explains why Daytona USA is the most successful arcade racing game of all time.

Now tell me, how have games like The House of the Dead, Crazy Taxi, Streets of Rage, Virtua Fighter, Phantasy Star, Shinobi and Puyo Puyo became huge successes in all regions to only name a few? Not to mention that games like Shenmue were a much larger success outside of Japan, which crushes your point entirely.

I don't see the contradiction with the arcade hits, that was obviously Sega's arena that Sony never touched. None of the aforementioned games come close to the massive sales the mainstream mega sellers pull today.  If you look at the top 10 charted games today they are not arcadey at all.

Shenmue in Japan comes down to the DC's weakness in that territory and the gaming audience swept up in PS2 hype and shifting towards Playstation style gaming.  Shenmue Online, of course, was a Chinese game? Maybe I'm just not following your point about Shenmue?

Also, tons of their kiddy games fail. Billy Hatcher was supposed to be a whole new brand image, Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll was the first very kiddy game in the series, guess what? It was the ONLY flop in the entire franchise so far. Same with Virtua Quest, a complete bomb.

Yeah, but none of those compare to Nintendo's awesome kiddy power.

[Team Andromeda]

Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period.

Nice Cop out, but how was SEGA able to beat NCL in the west in the 16 bit days . NCL had far more money , far better brand strength and far more mianstream appeal , with a NES being a complete smash in the USA.

Yeah, but Sega style games were losing to 'Sony style' games that were drawing in the mainstream audiences. Nobody but people like us gave a fart about Saturn's niche hardcore offerings.

What isn't mainstream about Sonic , John Madden, Aladdin and God knows how many more Mega Drive games .  And what this SONY style game you speak off , Don't tell me Wipeout ?

Street Fighter 2 achieved mainstream appeal yet was a hardcore game based on the game design being made first to appeal to hardcore game audiences

Nothing Hardcore about SF II, it was a game that almost everyone I knew in school played, because everyone could play it.

little skill or challenge of mastery, terrible replayability.

Like Sonic you mean ?

A game can be hardcore just on 'feel' regardless whether it has mainstream support or not.

Right I want to know what makes a game HardCore ?

Very generic artistically

Oh yes that's right , Greek mythology have been done to death in Videogames  :roll:

Goldeneye doesn't even come close to what the Halo series has achieved. Are you sure about that sales statistic, better than Halo 1? I seriously doubt it.

Try GoldenEye sold over 8 million copies, far more than the original HALO  5 to 6 million copies sold . So you need to start to hate GE  :lol:

In 2000: Sony market cap--$116 billion, Sega $3.5 billion, Nintendo $15 to $20 billion. LoL at however the hell you think Sega was going to compete with Sony with that size and the world best brand. Sega, Nintendo and Capcom were rivals all in the same industry. . . your really straying off course here? In 2000: Sony market cap--$116 billion, Sega $3.5 billion, Nintendo $15 to $20 billion. LoL at however the hell you think Sega was going to compete with Sony with that size and the world best brand. Sega, Nintendo and Capcom were rivals all in the same industry. . . your really straying off course here?

You want me to bring in what Micosoft Market Cap is ?. How come MS lost out with the X-Box , lost out to the Wii, MS with more cash inthe Bank that what NCL are worth.  How did NEC lost out to both SEGA and NCL when on what ever which way you cut it, they're were a far bigger Corp , than SEGA or NCL.

With your attitude SEGA should never have started in the Video Game Industry and might as well put out now.

Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.

No that why SEGA had over 55% of the western Video game market all to its self, why SEGA in the 90's was one of the fastest growing Companies in Japan, why Sonic is one of the best selling franchise of all time  . Because no-one cared for SEGA .

Sega divorced of Sammy is only like $1.5 billion company, really not that much larger financially than Capcom.

SEGA have always been bigger than Capcom , always had more capital and way more staff . What is it 3000 Vs 800 ?. Yet Capcom are able to boost more million selling IP this and last Generation.

Incidentally, why is Capcom 'kicking Sega's butt'? Great mainstream appeal

Wait I though you made out SF II was Hardcore ?. SF IV is nothing more than SF II made for the new generation . And I wouldn't really class Dead Rising , Lost Planet , DMC III as Main Stream games , would you . DMC 3 is inanely hard

The video game industry grew up from its niche core to a mainstream

The Video Games Industry was Huge in the Atari days . Sure more people own consoles today , but they again more people own TV's,cars Microwaves, Phones  . Thanks to people getting richer and better living standards.

Not just SONY mate

Sony was a giant when it launched PS1, it was the world leading consumer electronic brand.

It was nothing in the Video Games Industry, so much so NCL thought it could humiliate SONY . SONY 1st venture  inthe games Industry was poor with the MSX.

And how did this world leading all powerful consumer brand lose out to JVC's VHS drive . Remind me again was Mini Disc a huge seller ?

Like I say, Money is one thing, making products people want it quite another.

You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC?

Yes both massive Electronic Giants with many interests and divisions that have nothing to do with gaming

Did NEC go after mainstream western audiences with their shitty little obscure, hardcore consoles

Yes they tried thier best with TurboGrafx and failed. That despite have all that lovely money inthe bank, and being so, so much bigger than NCL, never mind SEGA. You see to some, the PC-Eng is as hardcore as it gets in Video games.

$70 million dollars and it didn't sell because it had no mainstream appeal. Yet Rockstar's turd does all on mainstream appeal. See the difference? And who caused the industry to be that way?!

Its all about Money isn' t it and this poor little SEGA with no money. Can somehow find 80 million to sped on 1 project and for it to still sell poor, there's nothing Mainstream in Darkness or Boarderlands either  
All I see is money is no guarantee of success, talking of which  Rockstar much like SEGA, haven't posted a profit in years (could change this year)