New Yakuza

[Aki-at]

? I've made out for years SEGA Japan tech is behind that of Capcom Japan and the likes of Fromsoftware , never mind the likes of Ubisoft and that was last gen , this gen it's sadly history repeating itself imo.

You've held the Hedgehog Engine to some unnaturally high standards when the majority of this forum, including actual software engineers, are not even impressed by it even back in 2008.

Yes and playing Binary Domain with a mouse ? I like to use my 360 pad on the PC and no Binary Domain isn't that impressive on the PC other than the doubling of the frame rate . To me if was a lazy port even to the point of using console button prompts even if you're playing with the keyboard and just a total mess of control settings .

Again what... Is your point? You're arguing about controls and cosmetics, that's it? If you're going to go on some random rant stop replying. You're wasting everyones time.

Binary Domain is much more impressive than Sonic Generations can ever hope to be on PC.

No . One needs the pipelines to be able to model and handle what the Art team throw at you . I don't find Yakuza's engines that impressive at all and its not like they don't have poor lighting effects . SEGA Japan just don't seem up to the task these days .

Again you don't understand what the point.

? I put to you it wasn't poor Art or poor Art direction that made the likes of Sukura Wars V, Final Revenge and PSU look so poor  but more the poor graphics engines powering the said games .

I see, the exception that proves the rule. Which is completely wrong of course, pull out a bunch of screenshots for the Hedgehog Engine and find how it is pretty poor if you know much about technical specifications.

Oh no I'll not make out the Sonic games are brilliant . I'm pointing out that Sonic Generations looks better uses more of next gen shaders

The Hedgehog Engine uses baked lighting, what's so next gen about that? Sorry but no, it's not dynamic lighting that people get excited about. So a point you've lost there.

and nicer effects than the earlier Yakuza games imo .

And what effects are these exactly? Binary Domain already updated the engine more than the Hedgehog Engine managed in 2011 4 months later.

Yakuza is meant to be SEGA AAA big gen productions and 'said' to be the game that gets the biggest spend . So you can forget Sonic for a moment to see Yakuza engine being behind the likes of Capcom's or From Software tech is just a bit of a comedown.

That's wrong, Yakuza is not SEGA's big AAA production, Alien is. Yakuza is SEGA's biggest game in Japan, that's it, it's not suppose to show off some unrivaled technological advancement, it's meant to appeal to their Japanese fanbase.

Even Binary Domain had double, maybe triple, the budget of the Yakuza games. Sonic and Yakuza receive roughly the same level of budget. The fact you think Yakuza gets the biggest spend makes me think you're inventing ideas in your own head.

But I see you are trying to throw a spanner in the works by derailing the original point so stick to it or you're simply proving you cannot debate on the core point, just like last time when you tried to say the PC market wasn't as important as the console market. The fact is the Hedgehog Engine is not impressive.

Geometry I;ll may give him that, but Aki got his facts about Wii U and Wii launches a little  bit wrong , never mind that the current sales of PS4 and XBox One are way ahead of last generations , way way ahead  . Those are facts as Aki likes to say it when comes to geometry .

Seriously, stop talking or get lost if you want to spin spin spin. Did you understand anything from that topic?

The point was people we're SPINNING the sales of the Wii U to show it was doing well, just like you were doing with the Xbox One, that was the point. The fact is PS4 + XB1 + Wii U < PS3 + X360 + Wii, that shows a negative impact in the market. So you are wrong, again.

If you or Aki want to prove otherwise ..by all means . But the facts are the XBox One and PS4 are selling more  than their predecessors and the Wii enjoyed a much better launch than the Wii U (Mind you so did the Cube).

I never once said the Playstation 4 was selling worse than the Playstation 3, again misrepresenting what I said and despicable act of trying to portray my points incorrectly.

You're just sprouting nonsense time and again, don't want to admit the Hedgehog Engine isn't some sort of holy grail, don't want to admit PC gaming is very much alive and better than ever before and have no understanding of how engines actually work.

[ROJM]

Chew you havisfaction a singlelicious satisfact to snack that up?

Ask them to update the forums so they can do instant translation...

[ROJM]

makes me think you're inventing ideas in your own head.

Never a true word said. Quote of the day!

[MadeManG74]

Yakuza Engine running on a high-end PC:



Hedgehog Engine running on a Nokia 3210 mobile telephone:











Notice the blur in the background on the Hedgehog Engine, and the fact that Sonic doesn't even have a shadow? Very poor stuff. The Geometry is also pretty terrible, as you can clearly see in both images (you can check with a calculator if required.


It also had terrible effects on the quality of the voice acting (which I can't show in a picture sadly).

[ROJM]

LOL.

[Team Andromeda]

You've held the Hedgehog Engine to some unnaturally high standards when the majority of this forum, including actual software engineers,

High standards to the engines SEGA Japan has to offer and software engineers ? give me a break . Any software engineer would know the likes of MT Framework are much more impressive than came form SEGA Japan last gen

Again what... Is your point? You're arguing about controls and cosmetics,

Well looking over the piss poor controls . With Sonic Gen on the PC you can really max out the graphics and really improve the look over the console versions . Binary Domain not so much and before you try and say I have a shit rig . I have a i7 3.50 GHz with 16 Gigs of Ram and AMD Radeon 7900 which while isn't the best is more than enough to run Binary.

The Hedgehog Engine uses baked lighting, what's so next gen about that?

For SEGA Japan it was step forward compared to the poor lighting and shader effects used in Yakuza 3, Kezan  . Compared to the likes of MT Engine and the like it's not that great. That's been my point for years how far SEGA Japan is for any sort of decent next gen engine .

And what effects are these exactly

Well the ones used in Yakuza IV are basic , that don't even reflected in realtime . But load Kezan up again and have a look at the water effects used in the village pools and what not and see the most basic piss poor water effects . The water effect for the sea on the beach was piss poor too and the lighting is basic level stuff that wouldn't look out of place in a PS2 game

That's wrong, Yakuza is not SEGA's big AAA production

The games needs to sell over 400,000 copies at Higher Retail price just to sort of break even - That was confirmed by Kawagoe-san years back wasn't it  . Yakuza games cost SEGA some serious money.

Sonic and Yakuza receive roughly the same level of budget

Sonic gets more . Sonic games gets serious amounts of money spent by SOJ.

stop talking or get lost if you want to spin spin spin

Not Spin . The Wii enjoyed a better lauch than the Wii U its a Fact .

I never once said the Playstation 4 was selling worse than the Playstation 3,

You and some other's 'tried' to make out that console's sales are in decline. Only you got it badly wrong  . Current console sales for both the X-Box 1 and PS4 are way ahead of their predecessors at the same period in their life time by a factor of over 70% in the USA alone  and that's after the lost economic slowdown in living life time  . Oh and what game is topping the charts in both around Europe and the USA it's the console FIFA and Density and the PC version of Sims IV is left if their wake .


Yet again you've got it badly wrong and just watch SONY and MS have a nice Christmas and Black Friday  selling even more consoles on the Back of GTA V, Halo Collection , COD . In decline my foot  . Just a shame that SEGA Japan is way behind the rest and offering next to nothing for the next gen console gamer 




And no link for Capcom's posting a loss ? There's a surprise














 

[ROJM]

The games needs to sell over 400,000 copies at Higher Retail price just to sort of break even - That was confirmed by Kawagoe-san years back wasn't it  . Yakuza games cost SEGA some serious money.

That depends on the YAKUZA game. 1,2 and 3 had to reach a high number....4 and RGG TO THE END and KENZEN and ISHI didn't because of the tweaks used in the engine. 5 however had to reach that number. 3 and 5 were the more expensive of the series. Because of the jump in the use of the engine since the original.

[Team Andromeda]

That depends on the YAKUZA game. 1,2 and 3 had to reach a high number.

I'm talking about Yakuza III when Kawagoe-san made a reference to Yakuza III and how the game just about broke even with 350,000 or maybe it was 400,000 units sold  . That's after no doubt help from SONY and with the game selling at the higher end of PS3 software (at the time) .


I was told that Yakuza and Sonic get the biggests spends allowed to the team by SOJ (that was back in 2010/1 mind)

[Aki-at]

High standards to the engines SEGA Japan has to offer and software engineers ? give me a break . Any software engineer would know the likes of MT Framework are much more impressive than came form SEGA Japan last gen

You seem to have concocted a discussion in your head again. We're not talking about other engines here, we are talking about the Hedgehog Engine which does not exist in a vacuum. And in regards to an engine, it is not impressive.

Well looking over the piss poor controls . With Sonic Gen on the PC you can really max out the graphics and really improve the look over the console versions . Binary Domain not so much and before you try and say I have a shit rig . I have a i7 3.50 GHz with 16 Gigs of Ram and AMD Radeon 7900 which while isn't the best is more than enough to run Binary.

Controls have nothing to do with the part of the engine we are talking about. You cannot improve issues such as geometry, they still exist in the PC version. What you can do is obtain a better framerate and in most regards Binary Domain actually runs fine.

For SEGA Japan it was step forward compared to the poor lighting and shader effects used in Yakuza 3, Kezan  . Compared to the likes of MT Engine and the like it's not that great. That's been my point for years how far SEGA Japan is for any sort of decent next gen engine .

We are not comparing other engines, stop trying to derail the core component of the discussion which is the Hedgehog Engine isn't even great. It relies on baked lighting and outside of certain objects (IE Sonic) has no dynamic lighting, any issues you have with the Yakuza engine should easily apply to the Hedgehog Engine.

Well the ones used in Yakuza IV are basic , that don't even reflected in realtime . But load Kezan up again and have a look at the water effects used in the village pools and what not and see the most basic piss poor water effects . The water effect for the sea on the beach was piss poor too and the lighting is basic level stuff that wouldn't look out of place in a PS2 game 

Again if you look at Dragon Road or Jungle Joyride the Hedgehog Engine isn't exactly showing off it's great tech either, issues you have with the Yakuza engine should apply to the Hedgehog Engine too.

The games needs to sell over 400,000 copies at Higher Retail price just to sort of break even - That was confirmed by Kawagoe-san years back wasn't it  . Yakuza games cost SEGA some serious money.

That was only Yakuza 3, the successive games Yakuza 4 and Dead Souls cost less as most of the groundwork was already made. We can thereby work out that, using the fact that publishers get anything between 30% - 50% (Let's say 50% for argument sake) that  ¥3990 goes SEGA's way x (400,000) = ¥1,596,000,000 which currently equates to $14.7 million. Considering Yakuza 1 and 2 cost SEGA around $20 million to make, that's actually a paltry amount of cash compared to the likes of Binary Domain, Phantasy Star Online 2, Alien: Isolation which were SEGA's true big time investment. Yakuza was merely average console production costs.

Sonic gets more . Sonic games gets serious amounts of money spent by SOJ.

Sonic gets a budget in the range of $15 million - $20 million. Hardly the budget of Alien: Isolation or Binary Domain.

Not Spin . The Wii enjoyed a better lauch than the Wii U its a Fact .

The point was people were spinning the shipment of the Wii U, which shipped more in America and Europe, to show off how well the console was doing. The same way you were spinning the Xbox One's numbers, the majority of the 70% increase in sales are thanks to the PS4 which has now began to fall behind the Wii which shows a market contraction, the point you tried to disprove so hard.

Even if the PS4 sells 155 million (Matching the PS2, highly unlikely) The Xbox One sells 50 million and the Wii U did 20 million, we would be seeing a contraction of over 35 million consoles. All these figures are best case scenarios too.

You and some other's 'tried' to make out that console's sales are in decline. Only you got it badly wrong  .

PS4 + Xbox One + Wii U < PS3 + 360 + Wii is a fact. The Playstation 4 isn't even matching the best selling console of last generation anymore, that's a fact. You just make claims without backing it up whilst I kept providing hard strong numbers.

Current console sales for both the X-Box 1 and PS4 are way ahead of their predecessors at the same period in their life time by a factor of over 70% in the USA alone  and that's after the lost economic slowdown in living life time  .

The fact you ignore the Wii's sales is very telling. Whilst the PS4 + Xbox One is up 70% in the US, the majority of that being thanks to the Playstation 4, which again is not matching the sales of the Wii.

Oh and what game is topping the charts in both around Europe and the USA it's the console FIFA and Density and the PC version of Sims IV is left if their wake .

Okay? Again you ignore the major points which is titles like Diablo or the big ones like Dota 2 and League of Legends.

Yet again you've got it badly wrong and just watch SONY and MS have a nice Christmas and Black Friday  selling even more consoles on the Back of GTA V, Halo Collection , COD . In decline my foot  . Just a shame that SEGA Japan is way behind the rest and offering next to nothing for the next gen console gamer 

You need to ignore consoles to make it seem consoles sales are up when they are in decline compared to the previous generation. It is a fact the three consoles of this generation are lagging behind the three consoles of the last generation.

But please stop trying to disprove me and shifting the argument to something completely unrelated, I kept asking you to stop talking to me because this is what you do. You attack me on a point I am not even addressing you (That was towards Ryan.) then you try to disprove me by showing you won a previous argument (Which you didn't, all you did was shout out statements without links or any sort of evidence, laughable how you said that 90s PC gaming was in a better condition than PC gaming currently.) and derail the subject completely (Moving away from the current Yakuza game, then onto talk about the engine, then talking about other engines and then onto sales trying to discredit me.) it's the usual tactics from you. 

[ROJM]

I'm talking about Yakuza III when Kawagoe-san made a reference to Yakuza III and how the game just about broke even with 350,000 or maybe it was 400,000 units sold  . That's after no doubt help from SONY and with the game selling at the higher end of PS3 software (at the time) .


I was told that Yakuza and Sonic get the biggests spends allowed to the team by SOJ (that was back in 2010/1 mind)

Oh, no doubt it is high but like i said it depends on which game you are on about in the series. Sony advertised YAKUZA 3  for Sega because they were exclusives and to alleviate the costs for marketing from Sega...in order to attract people to buy the PS3. YAKUZA 3 helped boost the PS3 sales once it was released..which was what Sony needed at that time.

[ROJM]

Kudos to you Aki...Kudos...

[Team Andromeda]

You seem to have concocted a discussion in your head again. We're not talking about other engines here,

Oh No don't try that. I've made out for years that SEGA Japan were behind the rest like Capcom and their engines and that's been my central point for years .

Controls have nothing to do with the part of the engine we are talking about.

Having 360 controller prompts even if one doesn't a 360 pad plugged in, just speaks to me of a port done on the quick . Other than that even one rumps up BD to the highest settings I'm not seeing a big improvement. Sonic Gen however I see a vast different in graphics on maxed out settings. 

Again if you look at Dragon Road or Jungle Joyride the Hedgehog Engine isn't exactly showing off it's great tech either

No the best I'll agree but at it looks better than that in Kezan or Yakuza III . The water effects in Kenzan were so basic with almost entry level shaders used on them, the fire effects in Kezan were basic and rather poor with next to no impressive lighting or particle effects used Kenzan 

the successive games Yakuza 4 and Dead Souls cost less as most of the groundwork was already made

Maybe that's just as well since they sold less . And any with close to 200 staff will cost a lot to make, even with the ground work done

Considering Yakuza 1 and 2 cost SEGA around $20 million to make, that's actually a paltry amount of cash compared to the likes of Binary Domain,

No really the $25 million Budget was only ever confirmed for Yakuza . And didn't most 360 and PS3 game cost on average  $30 million to make and unlike Yakuza 1 or 2 those are games made in the High Def era . Heavy Rain cost its self like 20 odd million to make and on almost every technical level the tech beats Yakuza III or IV .

SEGA Japan is behind on Tech and needs to up its game


 

[ROJM]

Yakuza 1 and 2 was the cost for both games....since that was how much it cost for the engine when they created it. YAKUZA 2 only cost a fraction of the overall budget because the engine was up and ready...and only needed to design the game around the power for the engine.

Keep making yourself look a fool...you've been proved wrong on this so many times now...saying outdated tech and having absolutely nothing to back you up doesn't win an argument.

But like i said this is all for attention seeking and you are deliberately debate trolling so people pay attention to you. No one in their right mind will keep using points that they haven't proved and proven wrong and a regular basis..unless they are indeed crazy....

[Aki-at]

Oh No don't try that. I've made out for years that SEGA Japan were behind the rest like Capcom and their engines and that's been my central point for years .

That's not the point, you're shifting the discussion again, we're talking about the Hedgehog Engine here solely.

Having 360 controller prompts even if one doesn't a 360 pad plugged in, just speaks to me of a port done on the quick . Other than that even one rumps up BD to the highest settings I'm not seeing a big improvement. Sonic Gen however I see a vast different in graphics on maxed out settings.

And what sort of improvement is that? It doesn't stop the issues I pointed out magically vanishing.

No the best I'll agree but at it looks better than that in Kezan or Yakuza III . The water effects in Kenzan were so basic with almost entry level shaders used on them, the fire effects in Kezan were basic and rather poor with next to no impressive lighting or particle effects used Kenzan.

And again that is the point, as I have said SEVERAL times, I am not arguing the Yakuza engine is good, I am arguing that the Hedgehog Engine was never great even back in 2008.

Maybe that's just as well since they sold less . And any with close to 200 staff will cost a lot to make, even with the ground work done.

Yakuza 4 sold more than Yakuza 3.

Yakuza 3: 509,223
Yakuza 4: 557,771

No really the $25 million Budget was only ever confirmed for Yakuza .

SEGA confirmed that the combined budget of the original Yakuza and the sequel was $20 million. A budget of $25 million for Yakuza would mean SEGA has been selling the games at constant lose.

And didn't most 360 and PS3 game cost on average  $30 million to make and unlike Yakuza 1 or 2 those are games made in the High Def era . Heavy Rain cost its self like 20 odd million to make and on almost every technical level the tech beats Yakuza III or IV .

No, most PS3/Xbox 360 games cost between $10 million - $20 million to make, for example Gears of War 2 cost $12 million to make.

SEGA Japan is behind on Tech and needs to up its game

And the Hedgehog Engine is as much part of that problem, even in 2008.

[ROJM]

Bang on Aki..Bang on... TA don't you get tired of being owned in an argument by me and Aki? Really...watching TA debate now is like watching you're pet struggling to walk realizing that you have to take it to the vet in order to put it down..