SEGA VS Fighting Games - "Better run home to mama now!"

[Mystic Monkey]

Actually Phantasy Star was Sega's direct answer Dragon Quest.
Console RPG market was dominated by Dragon Quest back then in Japan, even Final Fantasy's struggle to beat them (but they eventually's succesful).
To differentiate with Dragon Quest, Rieko Kodama and Yuji Naka presented a unique, futuristic sci-fi twist on the genre's established fantasy formula, featuring advanced graphics, first-person dungeons, and a sprawling space opera narrative across the games.



Meanwhile for Shining Force ... It's SEGA answer to Nintendo's Fire Emblem.
SEGA had nothing to answer Final Fantasy back then and I guess that's their false since Final Fantasy became an RPG monster franchise right now.

Heh, I was going to make comparison to Shining Force and Fire Emblem, but I figured I'd be wrong about it.

[Berto]

Heh, I was going to make comparison to Shining Force and Fire Emblem, but I figured I'd be wrong about it.

Yes, you're absolutely right.
Shining Force I and II were so sucessful both of them are on the list of Top 10 best selling Mega Drive games in Japan :

1. Puyo Puyo ~520,000
2. Shining Force ~243,000
3. Sonic the Hedgehog ~230,000
4. Shining Force II ~218,000
5. Phantasy Star IV ~217,000
6. Virtua Racing ~192,000
7. Street Fighter II ' Plus ~190,000
8. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 ~185,000
9. Sonic the Hedgehog 3 ~174,000
10. Shining and the Darkness ~162,000



The developer for both Shining Force I and II was Camelot, who also made Shining in the Darkness, Shining Wisdom, and Shining the Holy Ark for SEGA.
Problems arose during Shining Force III on the Sega Saturn (late 1998), as SEGA prioritized the Dreamcast, jeopardizing the project and causing tension.
Camelot was mad at SEGA and then finding a new home with Nintendo where they created Golden Sun and popular Mario Sports games such as Mario Golf and Mario Tennis.
While they're still successful, some fans are kinda dissapointed that Camelot seems "stuck" making Mario sports titles and hasn't returned to deep RPGs like Golden Sun or anything close to Shining Force series again.



Meanwhile eventhough SEGA continued the Shining series with other studios, none of it as good as Camelot's.
The franchise feels like it has lost its original spirit.

[Mystic Monkey]

Yes, you're absolutely right.
Shining Force I and II were so sucessful both of them are on the list of Top 10 best selling Mega Drive games in Japan :

1. Puyo Puyo ~520,000
2. Shining Force ~243,000
3. Sonic the Hedgehog ~230,000
4. Shining Force II ~218,000
5. Phantasy Star IV ~217,000
6. Virtua Racing ~192,000
7. Street Fighter II ' Plus ~190,000
8. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 ~185,000
9. Sonic the Hedgehog 3 ~174,000
10. Shining and the Darkness ~162,000



The developer for both Shining Force I and II was Camelot, who also made Shining in the Darkness, Shining Wisdom, and Shining the Holy Ark for SEGA.
Problems arose during Shining Force III on the Sega Saturn (late 1998), as SEGA prioritized the Dreamcast, jeopardizing the project and causing tension.
Camelot was mad at SEGA and then finding a new home with Nintendo where they created Golden Sun and popular Mario Sports games such as Mario Golf and Mario Tennis.
While they're still successful, some fans are kinda dissapointed that Camelot seems "stuck" making Mario sports titles and hasn't returned to deep RPGs like Golden Sun or anything close to Shining Force series again.



Meanwhile eventhough SEGA continued the Shining series with other studios, none of it as good as Camelot's.
The franchise feels like it has lost its original spirit.

I have noticed a change with the Shining games with Shining Force being a bit like Fire Emblem in style.

I recall you said a bit on Camelot jumping ship from Sega to Nintendo over some dispute. Hasn't Camelot or post-Sammy Sega made amends since?

[Berto]

I have noticed a change with the Shining games with Shining Force being a bit like Fire Emblem in style.

I recall you said a bit on Camelot jumping ship from Sega to Nintendo over some dispute. Hasn't Camelot or post-Sammy Sega made amends since?

No, from what I heard their relation is still bad.
Camelot reportedly still owns the source code for Shining Force III but they refused to give it to SEGA which's making Shining Force III  has very little chance to come back again.
Years later while the head of Camelot has expressed interest in making a Shining Force IV (just like Dotemu's making Streets of Rage IV), but rumour said there's a higher up at SEGA who refused to give the license for them to make the game so the chance is still low.



There's another case which is Shining Force: Heroes of Light and Darkness, a mobile game that's been worked together by SEGA and Vespa.
The game's using characters from Camelot's Shining Force I-II and Shining in the Dark.



Progress has been well for some months where they're sharing some videos and screenshots until one day suddenly the development of the game was stopped and suspended.
One of the reason from Vespa is how long the negotiations for the Shining Force IP have taken with SEGA.
Not sure if it has something to do with Camelot but judging how bad SEGA managed the licensing of their classic franchise, it's a possibility right?

[Berto]

Your "Nintendo Switch 2025" Year in Review has arrived!







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ruh66dTYTo

Check out not only your 2025 adventures, but memories from past years with your Nintendo Switch as well.
See your personalized review here in the link below.

Link: https://ninten.do/6013tAW9J

[Mystic Monkey]

No, from what I heard their relation is still bad.
Camelot reportedly still owns the source code for Shining Force III but they refused to give it to SEGA which's making Shining Force III  has very little chance to come back again.
Years later while the head of Camelot has expressed interest in making a Shining Force IV (just like Dotemu's making Streets of Rage IV), but rumour said there's a higher up at SEGA who refused to give the license for them to make the game so the chance is still low.



There's another case which is Shining Force: Heroes of Light and Darkness, a mobile game that's been worked together by SEGA and Vespa.
The game's using characters from Camelot's Shining Force I-II and Shining in the Dark.



Progress has been well for some months where they're sharing some videos and screenshots until one day suddenly the development of the game was stopped and suspended.
One of the reason from Vespa is how long the negotiations for the Shining Force IP have taken with SEGA.
Not sure if it has something to do with Camelot but judging how bad SEGA managed the licensing of their classic franchise, it's a possibility right?

But, in a Trigger's Broom sort of way, it's barely the same Sega from before! Do the people who irked Camelot to begin with still even work at Sega? Why pass grudges over if it's bad for business?

Other than that, if Sega still own the rights to Shining Force and Camelot own the original source codes... can't Sega just recreate the source codes? Whenever decompiling copies of the games or the fact it's the twenties and can just make an accurate recreation of modern programming. Sure it'll piss off Camelot more, but can't be any less pissed off at this point if neither of the sides want to make amends.

It's as I said before, Sega should properly "get their shit together" when it comes to their own IPs. Whenever it be for Sega All-Star games and crossovers, or just to have less legal disputes like this.

Meanwhile, Smash Bros games has nine Fire Emblem characters because "why not?". Nintendo ain't disputing with Intelligent Systems because Nintendo keeps their shit together with their IPs to make crossovers and marketing with them easy.

[Berto]

But, in a Trigger's Broom sort of way, it's barely the same Sega from before! Do the people who irked Camelot to begin with still even work at Sega? Why pass grudges over if it's bad for business?

Other than that, if Sega still own the rights to Shining Force and Camelot own the original source codes... can't Sega just recreate the source codes? Whenever decompiling copies of the games or the fact it's the twenties and can just make an accurate recreation of modern programming. Sure it'll piss off Camelot more, but can't be any less pissed off at this point if neither of the sides want to make amends.

It's as I said before, Sega should properly "get their shit together" when it comes to their own IPs. Whenever it be for Sega All-Star games and crossovers, or just to have less legal disputes like this.

Meanwhile, Smash Bros games has nine Fire Emblem characters because "why not?". Nintendo ain't disputing with Intelligent Systems because Nintendo keeps their shit together with their IPs to make crossovers and marketing with them easy.

Well, actually just like SEGA, Nintendo also has a history of having disputes with their second party companies.
The most notable one is with RARE with whom they enjoyed a highly successful partnership (Donkey Kong Country, GoldenEye 007, Banjo-Kazooie).
Eventhough Nintendo owned 49% of Rare in the 1990s, they didn't get along well in end of N64 era which's making a way for Microsoft to acquire RARE in 2002.



Second one was with Argonaut Games, which co-developed Star Fox on SNES, they had a strained relationship during the N64 era.
Nintendo famously rejected several of their prototypes, including a Yoshi Racing game and the fully completed Star Fox 2 (which was shelved for years), which caused friction.



There was also with DMA Design (now Rockstar North) which ironically was part of Nintendo's "Dream Team" during the N64 era.
Nintendo meddled heavily in the development of Body Harvest, giving confusing design demands before ultimately dropping the publishing deal, leaving the studio frustrated.



Lastly there's also Sucker Punch Productions (now a first-party Sony studio) which pitched Rocket: Robot on Wheels to Nintendo, but were forced to create a prototype without a development kit, only to have the project handled in a confusing manner, driving them away from future Nintendo partnerships.



As you can see, all of these were during N64 era.
After that (Game Cube, Wii, 3DS, Wii U, and Switch era) Nintendo seems doing fine with their second party companies.
I guess they did learn the lesson and treated their their second party companies better now, which Camelot's being one of them.

[Mystic Monkey]

Well, actually just like SEGA, Nintendo also has a history of having disputes with their second party companies.
The most notable one is with RARE with whom they enjoyed a highly successful partnership (Donkey Kong Country, GoldenEye 007, Banjo-Kazooie).
Eventhough Nintendo owned 49% of Rare in the 1990s, they didn't get along well in end of N64 era which's making a way for Microsoft to acquire RARE in 2002.



Second one was with Argonaut Games, which co-developed Star Fox on SNES, they had a strained relationship during the N64 era.
Nintendo famously rejected several of their prototypes, including a Yoshi Racing game and the fully completed Star Fox 2 (which was shelved for years), which caused friction.



There was also with DMA Design (now Rockstar North) which ironically was part of Nintendo's "Dream Team" during the N64 era.
Nintendo meddled heavily in the development of Body Harvest, giving confusing design demands before ultimately dropping the publishing deal, leaving the studio frustrated.



Lastly there's also Sucker Punch Productions (now a first-party Sony studio) which pitched Rocket: Robot on Wheels to Nintendo, but were forced to create a prototype without a development kit, only to have the project handled in a confusing manner, driving them away from future Nintendo partnerships.



As you can see, all of these were during N64 era.
After that (Game Cube, Wii, 3DS, Wii U, and Switch era) Nintendo seems doing fine with their second party companies.
I guess they did learn the lesson and treated their their second party companies better now, which Camelot's being one of them.

Even though they gave RARE and Argonaut Games the short end, Nintendo still held rights to Donkey Kong and StarFox to continue making games without these studios, as well as the characters in Smash Bros.

So while it would likely be sordid and piss off Camelot even further, couldn't Sega just recreate the classic Shining Force from the ground up?

Because if Sega can't re-release Shining Force because of gameplay or coding rights from Camelot, and Camelot won't give those rights to Sega to re-release their games... then the only way for fans to play these games is emulators. Sega and Camelot will get nothing!

[Berto]

Even though they gave RARE and Argonaut Games the short end, Nintendo still held rights to Donkey Kong and StarFox to continue making games without these studios, as well as the characters in Smash Bros.

That's how good legal team in Nintendo is compared to another game companies.
Sony's legal team couldn't even keep Crash Bandicoot.

So while it would likely be sordid and piss off Camelot even further, couldn't Sega just recreate the classic Shining Force from the ground up?

Because if Sega can't re-release Shining Force because of gameplay or coding rights from Camelot, and Camelot won't give those rights to Sega to re-release their games... then the only way for fans to play these games is emulators. Sega and Camelot will get nothing!

It's just for Shining Force III.
The previous Shining Force games are fine.
We can still play them in SEGA Mega Drive Mini 1-2 or SEGA Mega Drive Collection/Classic.

[Mystic Monkey]

That's how good legal team in Nintendo is compared to another game companies.
Sony's legal team couldn't even keep Crash Bandicoot.

Yeah, but even Banjo Kazooie ended up in Smash Bros. So are things fixed between Nintendo and Rare?

It's just for Shining Force III.
The previous Shining Force games are fine.
We can still play them in SEGA Mega Drive Mini 1-2 or SEGA Mega Drive Collection/Classic.

OK, but if Sega still owns the rights to Shining Force, can't they just recreate Shining Force III from the ground up?

Sega: "We can't remake Shining Force III without the original source codes... for some reason."
Camelot: "We don't want to give the source codes to Sega due to old outdated feud!"
Me: *Playing Shining Force III rom, for free, while Sega and Camelot go back and forth fruitlessly.*

(Though I yet to get a Sega Saturn emulator.)

[Berto]

Yeah, but even Banjo Kazooie ended up in Smash Bros. So are things fixed between Nintendo and Rare?

No, it's not between Nintendo and Rare.
It's between Nintendo and Microsoft (who already lent them Steve before).
Banjo-Kazooie franchise's belong to Microsoft's Xbox Game Studios now.

OK, but if Sega still owns the rights to Shining Force, can't they just recreate Shining Force III from the ground up?

They could but why would they?
Does it fit current market demands now?
How does it stack up against existing games?
Would it interest partnership to make a colab of it or get licensing from it?
Would fans buy all related merchs that come with it?
Do they align with the publisher's goals and portfolio?

The game was phenomenal when it was released but almost 20 years has passed since then.
If we discard nostalgia factor, there are many new games that's more marketable to current gamer's audience.
SEGA themselves has said that they to spend time, energy, and resources on creating new, modern experiences rather than recreating past ones.

Sega: "We can't remake Shining Force III without the original source codes... for some reason."
Camelot: "We don't want to give the source codes to Sega due to old outdated feud!"
Me: *Playing Shining Force III rom, for free, while Sega and Camelot go back and forth fruitlessly.*

(Though I yet to get a Sega Saturn emulator.)

Good luck playing with Scenarios 2 and 3 in Japanese then.
Though of course you can still wait until the high-quality English fan translation patches completed.

[Mystic Monkey]

No, it's not between Nintendo and Rare.
It's between Nintendo and Microsoft (who already lent them Steve before).
Banjo-Kazooie franchise's belong to Microsoft's Xbox Game Studios now.

So Microsoft lent Banjo Kazooie to Nintendo, not RARE. How did RARE take it?

They could but why would they?
Does it fit current market demands now?
How does it stack up against existing games?
Would it interest partnership to make a colab of it or get licensing from it?
Would fans buy all related merchs that come with it?
Do they align with the publisher's goals and portfolio?

The game was phenomenal when it was released but almost 20 years has passed since then.
If we discard nostalgia factor, there are many new games that's more marketable to current gamer's audience.
SEGA themselves has said that they to spend time, energy, and resources on creating new, modern experiences rather than recreating past ones.

But didn't you say there were fans wishing for a Shining Force IV? Is there still a market for it?

Good luck playing with Scenarios 2 and 3 in Japanese then.
Though of course you can still wait until the high-quality English fan translation patches completed.

There are translated versions on romsfun.
https://romsfun.com/roms/sega-saturn/?q=Shining+Force+III
But no Dreamcast emulator recommended on it.

[Berto]

So Microsoft lent Banjo Kazooie to Nintendo, not RARE. How did RARE take it?

For the original character designer, Steve Mayles, he said he's thrilled but also described the appearance as "bittersweet"—a wonderful tribute to the characters, but a reminder that Banjo Kazooie had not had a new game in years.
He's not on Rare anymore. Along with several other Rare alumni, they already left and founded their own gaming company (Playtonic Games) which successfully crowdfunded Yooka-Laylee on May 1, 2015.



For Rare, they said they're happy with the return but they also expressed a preference for creating new, innovative games (like Sea of Thieves or Grabbed by the Ghoulies) rather than simply remaking or remastering old titles, arguing that they prefer not to revisit old IP unless they have a truly new concept.
But I'm sure they wouldn't say no if Microsoft asked them to make a new game for Banjo-Kazooie. They're most likely gonna make a new concept of it. The ball's on Microsoft now.

But didn't you say there were fans wishing for a Shining Force IV? Is there still a market for it?

Yes, but those were Japanese fans mostly.
While Shining Force were on the list of Top 10 best selling Mega Drive games in Japan, that's not the case in western.
They're not even in the Top 20.
NFL '98, John Madden Football '93, NFL Football '94, NHL '94, Mortal Kombat I-III, Aladdin, and X-Men outsold them by a lot of margin.
Even Sonic Spinball and Ms. Pac-Man sold better than them.

There are translated versions on romsfun.
https://romsfun.com/roms/sega-saturn/?q=Shining+Force+III
But no Dreamcast emulator recommended on it.

I don't know what version that romsite uses though for the translation patch but those translations weren't actually finished since the translation project's kept updated every year even till now, but yes, it's better than playing it in Japanese if you can't understand the language.

[Mystic Monkey]

For the original character designer, Steve Mayles, he said he's thrilled but also described the appearance as "bittersweet"—a wonderful tribute to the characters, but a reminder that Banjo Kazooie had not had a new game in years.
He's not on Rare anymore. Along with several other Rare alumni, they already left and founded their own gaming company (Playtonic Games) which successfully crowdfunded Yooka-Laylee on May 1, 2015.



For Rare, they said they're happy with the return but they also expressed a preference for creating new, innovative games (like Sea of Thieves or Grabbed by the Ghoulies) rather than simply remaking or remastering old titles, arguing that they prefer not to revisit old IP unless they have a truly new concept.
But I'm sure they wouldn't say no if Microsoft asked them to make a new game for Banjo-Kazooie. They're most likely gonna make a new concept of it. The ball's on Microsoft now.

Well, it's good no hard feelings I suppose. Especi9ally given it is as if they wanted to move on from Banjo Kazooie for new ventures.

Yes, but those were Japanese fans mostly.
While Shining Force were on the list of Top 10 best selling Mega Drive games in Japan, that's not the case in western.
They're not even in the Top 20.
NFL '98, John Madden Football '93, NFL Football '94, NHL '94, Mortal Kombat I-III, Aladdin, and X-Men outsold them by a lot of margin.
Even Sonic Spinball and Ms. Pac-Man sold better than them.

[/qoute]Well, yeah. I haven't heard of Shining Force games until a few decades later. the only one I played is Shiningg Resonance and only remember bits of it.

I don't know what version that romsite uses though for the translation patch but those translations weren't actually finished since the translation project's kept updated every year even till now, but yes, it's better than playing it in Japanese if you can't understand the language.

Yeah, I imagine I have to wait it out.

[Berto]

Well, it's good no hard feelings I suppose. Especi9ally given it is as if they wanted to move on from Banjo Kazooie for new ventures.

I know Rare is famous for Donkey Kong Country and Banjo-Kazooie but they already made many games before that.
Last year, there's Rare Collection 1 released for arcade that contais 12 games.
Pretty sure you won't recognize many games among of these 12 games other than Battletoads and Conker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWq8EOwLFrk

Link : https://evercade.co.uk/cartridges/rare-collection-1/

Well, yeah. I haven't heard of Shining Force games until a few decades later. the only one I played is Shiningg Resonance and only remember bits of it.

No wonder SEGA refused to bring Shining Force III Ep2 and 3 to the western.