Sega at AOU 2010.

[Suzuki Yu]

SFC Ver.B official Trailer
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I'm saying SEGA Arcade teams make better use of the tech they're give to work on . the Arcade teams seem better able to use PC Tech and use of next gen shaders and HDR ECT  , and  John thinks If it’s not fair to compare Arcade games to Homes games, then it shouldn’t be fair to compare AM#2 to a Consumer product that was made with far more staff and much bigger budget .
 

this .

AM2 knows well how to take advantage of any hardware they are working with .

just imagine them working on PS3 or 360 on a big-budget title !
but sadly SEGA will not give them another chance again after the failure of Shenmue

[Aki-at]

That and, well, the arcade division is making more money than the consumer division

[jonboy101]

Let me get drunk and I will respond in kind. However, let me begin by saying, of course the arcade games have better graphics. They are arcade games. They are more compact and generally aren't open ended at all. They are easier to make. Because they require less depth, they can make the games more shiny.


Aki- yeah, that's a giant surprise. How much does it cost to invest in, say Virtua Fighter, as opposed to Yakuza? And let's not forget that the arcade team's success is also generated at home. Virtua Fighter makes plenty of money on the consoles, where Yakuza isn't released in the arcade. The AM divisions can have their fingers in both pies. Also to consider, Sega has new sales every time they tweak Virtua Fighter or Quest of D. There isn't a Yakuza 3.1 C, or Yakuza 3 Evolution, or Yakuza 3 Online, or Yakuza 3 R.

[Aki-at]

Aki- yeah, that's a giant surprise. How much does it cost to invest in, say Virtua Fighter, as opposed to Yakuza? And let's not forget that the arcade team's success is also generated at home. Virtua Fighter makes plenty of money on the consoles, where Yakuza isn't released in the arcade. The AM divisions can have their fingers in both pies. Also to consider, Sega has new sales every time they tweak Virtua Fighter or Quest of D. There isn't a Yakuza 3.1 C, or Yakuza 3 Evolution, or Yakuza 3 Online, or Yakuza 3 R.

You're telling me that even with a close to 6 million seller, another one that sold over a million and another title that sold over half that, SEGA's consumer division's profits is all going to Yakuza? It’s not, they have been downright terrible at trying to make a profit recently, even with a host of big sellers. Imagine in how much of a loss they would have been if they didn't have Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games to bail them out.

I would also like to know what arcade game that isn't Virtua Fighter has been brought to the console by SEGA recently? I'd also like to inform you it was not Virtua Fighter that spurred profit for SEGA's arcade divison, it was mainly the sales of Shining Force Cross and more significantly, Border Break, which is also a big budgeted arcade title.

[STORM!]

Shining Force Cross is a flop. Nobody is playing it. Sega forced their operators to buy it and else...

 For information, Star Horse made way more money to Sega than Virtua Fighter 2 did at it's golden ages in 199?... can't remember the date ;P

 Some key members of AM3 are now in AM2, since AM3 does not exists anymore, and they are the persons who done the convertion of Virtual-On to the XB360, not only AM2 members.

 About Sega at AOU 2010, the fact is that this is one of the worst lineup ever on Sega's history, even when the titles looks fine and hot and still making money.

[Team Andromeda]

Let me get drunk and I will respond in kind. However, let me begin by saying, of course the arcade games have better graphics. They are arcade games. They are more compact and generally aren't open ended at all. They are easier to make. Because they require less depth, they can make the games more shiny.

Yakuza isn't that much of a open ended game , and there's plenty of open ended games that feature far better graphics in game than Yakuza , So I'm not sure of that point .  One could say Yakuza is nothing more than Shenmue in new clothing  that  AM#2 developed title,  that while  was about as open as Yakuza game world , featured some of the best graphics around , that many had seen at the time .
Mass Effect II , GTA IV , AC 1& II all feature better in game graphics than Yakuza III, and in GTA IV and AC case they're years old now

Some key members of AM3 are now in AM2, since AM3 does not exists anymore, and they are the persons who done the convertion of Virtual-On to the XB360, not only AM2 member

AM#3 are still around and have always worked with AM#2 on the Virtual On series, AM#2 are in VO II credits for example .  Speaking of AM#2 and BD, Bordered Break  Producer Shimoda-san , that lead the VO II port to LIVE Arcade .

[jonboy101]

Aki- yeah, that's a giant surprise. How much does it cost to invest in, say Virtua Fighter, as opposed to Yakuza? And let's not forget that the arcade team's success is also generated at home. Virtua Fighter makes plenty of money on the consoles, where Yakuza isn't released in the arcade. The AM divisions can have their fingers in both pies. Also to consider, Sega has new sales every time they tweak Virtua Fighter or Quest of D. There isn't a Yakuza 3.1 C, or Yakuza 3 Evolution, or Yakuza 3 Online, or Yakuza 3 R.

You're telling me that even with a close to 6 million seller, another one that sold over a million and another title that sold over half that, SEGA's consumer division's profits is all going to Yakuza? It’s not, they have been downright terrible at trying to make a profit recently, even with a host of big sellers. Imagine in how much of a loss they would have been if they didn't have Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games to bail them out.

I would also like to know what arcade game that isn't Virtua Fighter has been brought to the console by SEGA recently? I'd also like to inform you it was not Virtua Fighter that spurred profit for SEGA's arcade divison, it was mainly the sales of Shining Force Cross and more significantly, Border Break, which is also a big budgeted arcade title.

Okay, I'm fucking drunk and ready to tango, bitch.

No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that consumer games cost a whole hell of a lot more to develop than some arcade game. Valkyrie of the Battlefield, Yakuza, all of those Sonic games, things like Phantasy Star Universe, all those shitty handheld games, the investment Sega makes into outside development games like Resonance of Fate, Bayonetta, Aliens Versus Predator,  Alpha Protocol, Sonic Chronicles and so on. Three of those games are RPGs, and god knows they aren't cheap.

We also need to consider money spent on games that have yet to see the light of day (or never will) like the mysterious Silicon Knights game (their services probably cost a pretty goddamn penny to begin with, not to mention the actual cost of developing the game that never made money) or the Aliens RPG which must have cost a decent amount. Even supposing they only spent one hundred thousand dollars on the initial contract, that's one hundred thousand dollars never recouped because the game never came out. Then we have Fifth Phantom Saga.

Consumer games cost more. That's more or less the way it is. They all take up a bunch of money to develop. In some cases (Phantasy Star Universe, Golden Axe) even the long term profitable ones don't look that way on the sheets, because they don't manage to recoup those losses immediately. Things like rereleases and using the existing tech to make other games (PS Portable) help out in that regard, but the results aren't shown black and white on the balance sheet during a fiscal year.

 Phantasy Star Universe was a big reason the Consumer Division lost money from about 2003 to about 2006, and when it came out in bombed hard. Three years of loss on the game was not recouped during fiscal year 2006, so it looks like a loss. In reality, Phantasy Star Universe made money over a longer period of time with things like the monthly charge, DLC (assuming it has some on the X360), as well as providing a very solid basis for two games that sold as well as the original.

Virtua Fighter is nothing to sneeze at and you know it, Aki. They made enough money off the arcades alone to cover the cost of porting the sonbitch to the consoles. So they practically printed money with its console release, and you can bet your ass they will again with some sort of Virtua Fighter 5R package that will come out.

Virtual On is another fine example. It sold fairly well and made plenty of money. They didn't even have to pay to advertise and press discs. AfterBurner will be the same way. OutRun 2 on the XBLA was probably counted as being from the arcade division on the balance sheets because the game is ultimately AM-2's. Ghost Squad would have been another cheap as hell port of an extremely popular arcade game that sold, what, 700,000 units? Hardly chump change.

As Storm so lovingly pointed out, SFC sold like shit.

[Sharky]

 About Sega at AOU 2010, the fact is that this is one of the worst lineup ever on Sega's history, even when the titles looks fine and hot and still making money.

Nonsense...

[jonboy101]

Let me get drunk and I will respond in kind. However, let me begin by saying, of course the arcade games have better graphics. They are arcade games. They are more compact and generally aren't open ended at all. They are easier to make. Because they require less depth, they can make the games more shiny.

Yakuza isn't that much of a open ended game , and there's plenty of open ended games that feature far better graphics in game than Yakuza , So I'm not sure of that point .  One could say Yakuza is nothing more than Shenmue in new clothing  that  AM#2 developed title,  that while  was about as open as Yakuza game world , featured some of the best graphics around , that many had seen at the time .
Mass Effect II , GTA IV , AC 1& II all feature better in game graphics than Yakuza III, and in GTA IV and AC case they're years old now

Some key members of AM3 are now in AM2, since AM3 does not exists anymore, and they are the persons who done the convertion of Virtual-On to the XB360, not only AM2 member

AM#3 are still around and have always worked with AM#2 on the Virtual On series, AM#2 are in VO II credits for example .  Speaking of AM#2 and BD, Bordered Break  Producer Shimoda-san , that lead the VO II port to LIVE Arcade .

I'm comparing Yakuza to the efforts of the arcade divisions, which, by comparison, are shallow worlds with shiny graphics.

[Team Andromeda]

I'm comparing Yakuza to the efforts of the arcade divisions, which, by comparison, are shallow worlds with shiny graphics.

Yakuza 3 isn't a patch on Shenmue II in my eye's  . But I'll compare Yakuza 3 and SEGA  Japan consumer games to efforts of other consumer games for other 3rd parties in the interest of fairness .
Tech wise , behind in many ways , Open world wise ? behind the times  , Online ? again behind the times ,  New IP wise nothing really new there .
 Good games wise , well its not really been brilliant this past year for SOJ ,  in my view, in fact its been shit .

[jonboy101]

No, that wouldn't be fair. You were calling out the consumer division as compared to the arcade division. You said the consumer division can't push hardware while the arcade division can.

My point was that that isn't fair because the arcade division isn't making games nearly as elaborate, so obviously their products look better.

[Team Andromeda]

No, that wouldn't be fair. You were calling out the consumer division as compared to the arcade division. You said the consumer division can't push hardware while the arcade division can.

My point was that that isn't fair because the arcade division isn't making games nearly as elaborate, so obviously their products look better.

Oh no worries I'll compare SEGA Consumer effort to their Arcade efforts anyday of the week , and its no contest gamewise or GFX wise , and AM dept have over the years made very Elaborate  games , like with SEGA GT , Shenmue series of games , and they did features some great graphics too

I don't share your views on Elaborate  games either . Monkey Step and Roll, Sonic VS Mario Winter elaborate games ?,  yet they look really poor (in fact I say Monkey Ball II looks better), and Val II is hardly the best looking RPG on the PSP
Yakuza III isn't any more open than Shenmue , and nothing as open as the lastest Open RPG's like Mass Effect II, Fallout III , and yet In-Game its graphics are nowhere near as good as the likes of those, never mind GTA IV .
Don't tell me Yakuza IV will change all that , now with added weather effects and being able to fight and run on the Roof tops . Shame AM#2 did that years ago in Shenmue 1 and II .

[Aki-at]

Jonboy you are missing the point. SEGA's arcade division made profit with two major releases only in Japan, SEGA's console division made less profit with three major console releases (Two worldwide) I'd also like to pointout, the arcade divison's financial breakdown are all on arcade sales, no console sales at all.

Take out Mario & Sonic's profits, which would probably fall into well over $150 million profit for SEGA, SEGA's consumer teams would not have been making any money if they did not have that behemoth applied to them you could imagine how much loss they would be in. The same should be applied in 2008 and 2009 when it was the original that spurred sales on in their consumer teams.

The consumer teams have SEGA's biggest brand, but complete mismanagement of the series has caused the series to receive three bombs, Sonic Chronicles, Sonic and the Black Knight and Sonic Unleashed.

As for consumer games costing a whole lot more, Sonic Unleashed doesn't even go past $15 million in budget and that's SEGA's biggest IP, wonder how cheap other games are. The only series that has had more money poured into it is the Yakuza series. Yes you can say "They have X" number of games coming out, but the simple fact is that most of their games miss the target from sales expectations, some (Sonic mainly, Golden Axe, Super Monkey Ball) through their quality and design.

As Storm so lovingly pointed out, SFC sold like shit.

No, it didn't. SEGA used their new method of payment to get operators to purchase it and it sold very well, selling over 2,000 units isn’t considered “shit”

You are also listening to the guy who is predicting Armageddon for the company.

Besides, the producer of Phantasy Star Portable 2 was expecting a million seller, so I can say that sold poorly too.

[STORM!]

Sold the machines and what!? Nobody is giving a shit for SFC...  
 In time, where the hell this is a Shining game? Where are the magicians? The centaurs? The beastmen? It's completely ridiculous.

 And why this lineup is one of the worst? Because there are only sequels, titles from domestic market, licensed characters, updates, nothing new... there are nothing new!

 On the kids games, Sega still losing for Pokemon and Dragon Quest, even after releasing a lot of nice titles like Gettenka. I hope the new Mushiking make some success, like before.

 The Transformers game sounds promising too, but it's licensed product...

[Aki-at]

Sold the machines and what!? Nobody is giving a shit for SFC...

Again that is not the point I was making.

Jonboy said the game sold like shit, this statement is incorrect because the game did not actually sell like shit, because it sold at least over 2,000 units. If users are not coming back to try the game is a completely different statement to make (And one I did not point out) but SEGA feels happy enough to make an update for the game so there is some indication of them being happy with the title.