Sonic Generations General Discussion

[Team Andromeda]

 

, I think you're missing the point. I think you're both agreeing that people can become overly associated with the project relative to their involvement, whether by accident or design.

My issues aren't really with you - At least you'll try and have a debate and will present some facts. I'm only making the point that in most games, a producer or a programmers will tend to get most of the credit at the expense of others in the Team, more so back in the 8bit and 16 bit days when the Teams were so very small.

But to make out that 1) Naka-san wasn't deeply involved in the 16 Bit MD Sonic titles, or shouldn't get credit for the incredible engine he created,  for the 1st and then the sequels.... is incorrect and very wrong.
 

I will also reiterate that sonic 2 was STI, for the most part, not sonic team.

I don't think anyone made out otherwise. It was made in STI by mostly the Japanese staff headed by the likes of Naka-san . Much like Die Hard Arcade was made in STI, but mainly by Japanese staff flown over headed by Uchida-san

Former STI member Tim Skelly recalls the difficulties. “Everyone attached to to Sonic 2 ultimately worked for Yuji Naka.

[ROJM]

Can you read End credits ?, Can you Finish games ?, What part of Program, Head/Cheif Program or Producer did/do you not understand?

Have a look at Sonic credits... by the time of Sonic III YU2 Naka-san wasn't just head programmer, but Producer too . Lsten to you though.... he had no nothing to with Sonic 2 ECT .
It's was called MJ Moonwalker, because that was the Film  the game was based on was called . I can't think of any PR, any Mag or any gamer that thought MJ made the game himself. Most gave 'SEGA' credit for the game, not MJ.

Keep up the spin my novice gamer. Sega didn't credit any staff for the creation of the game just MJ. You can keep trying to throw curves but its pretty clear what i've said, everyone understands that and to me that's all that matters. Now here's simple english. If Sega can give one person sole credit for two titles then they can also give credit to other people whose work presence was limited.

What next Peter Jackson and Peter Jackson alone  make King Kong on the 360, X-Box, Cube ECT...  ;D

John Madden on the latter games, got very much involved and far more hands on, but even on the 2nd Madden game (read:1st Mega Drive version) old John wouldn't agree to put his name unless the  development team up the number of players, from the then 8 to 11 (anything less wasn't football to John) , which gave the programmers some issues .

On the LATTER games, proving my point again. But he gets credited whether he's involved or not.

One day you might actually know what you're talking about, or at least  be well briefed on the subject matter in hand . Instead of the need of endless insults .... We can but hope.

Ah, the statement of someone losing the argument and using insults as a last resort while accusing the person he's attacking of the same thing. Grow up novice. I'm not the wrong using guess works for a budget of a PS3 game. I'm also not the one whose actually been proven wrong by anyone else. JB and Aki on two different subjects have made you look a fool and only a fool can't realise that.

1) Name me this game that Naka took credit for, but never worked on . 2) If there's one person who's name is everywhere and talks about games he didn't really have much do with Its Nagoshi-san, Hell Nagoshi-san is in Sonic 06 credits  and all the Sonic games since Naka left , shall we blame him for the mess that was Sonic 06 ?

I named it. You know that. That's it. END of. For someone who is accusinng me of not understanding anything you obviously can't as well. 

You tried to make out Naka didn't have much to do with Sonic II (nobody else) One look at the game credits see's that like for all the 16 bit Sonic 'Mega Drive' titles (1,2,3 S&K) Naka was the head programmer to all of them and producer to two of them .

Wrong, JB backed me up. Again you plainly lied again. 

Now either you can't read end Credits, can't finish the 16 Bit titles, or never actually owned them. I really couldn't careless what the actual reason is.....The facts are Naka was head Programmer to Sonic 1, 2, 3 S&K, and also producer to Sonic III and S&K.

FACT

Not for Sonic 2 he wasn't. despite what the credits say he was in a very limited role in that game. Anyone at the time knew that considering he left, IE physically left at the period of the main stages of that titles development only to return towards the end. Now you can keep lying to people and yourself that I'm saying Naka wasn't involved in the rest of the sonic series but the simple fact is this. MD sonic series was essentially a team effort of particular equals. Sonic adventure to 2006 was all under YN leadership. And guess which were the better games? No getting away from that factoid. If Naka was the main factor for sonic's success he'd should have been succesful. But this "father" of sonic has never made a good sonic game when he was the actual leader of the sonic team compared to when sonic team was a group of individuals who all had an important part to play.

Lets remember your stance , that the 32X version of VF looked better than the Saturn version. Which in anyone book, is hopelessly wrong and  just laughable

It isn't really especially when sevral american magazines came to the same conclusion of the clear precise 32x version over the buggy monster of the saturn one. But then you'd actually had to be playing games at the time to know what the reaction was.

The 32X add -on idea was SOA call . SEGA Japan idea was to go with a improved Mega Drive (not add on  but a standard console, like the PC Eng  supergrafx ) and the Jupiter plan which was the Saturn minis the CD-Rom for those that couldn't afford the price of Saturn.
 You're so laughable . The paymasters in any multinational corporation will always have the final say . That doesn't mean that, the different division's aren't allowed to push on with idea's they think with work best for their particular Market.

Accusing me of insulting you yet you're the one whose doing the insulting around here. How ironic. Everyone knows where the 32x originated, it wasn't an SOA idea like you keep banging on about. The facts are out there. You've been proved wrong on this countless times and when theres several articles stated the same facts that me and JB told you as opposed to one then i think its obvious who i'd believe.

Next you be telling me that SEGA Cable channel was all SOJ (even though it only ever came out in America ) that Activator was SOJ (even though its bigger than most Japanese living rooms)  That SOJ deserver all the credit for making Joe Montana (a sport with hardly any following in Japan ) , selling the Mega Drive and Genesis to the West ... Don't thank SOA for SEGA Technical Institute, but thank SOJ instead 

Everything all thanks to SEGA Japan, not SEGA Europe or America.

Yawn, Then i guess you missed the interview articles when SOA decided to spend big bucks to get big names for their sports games that SOJ wasn't sure that they should do it but relented. Most decisions would have to have SOJ approval, they couldn't just use the money by themselves now could they? Not a company that has stock holders. If you understood basic economics you'd know that. But keep distracting from the actual point, 32x was SOJ's idea which SOA ran with. Get over it and you'll live a happy life.

Now I'm really done with your twisted logic, hopelessly incorrect facts and endless insults . I'll much rather talk about SONIC new games, but listen to you and 'some' other's . Sonic Team were the Joke of SEGA  were the laughing stock and any talk of them upping their game and got some great 'new strategies' so very wrong.

I never said Sonic Team were the laughing stock of Sega. This is just another example of you lying.
I think everyone's done with your twisted logic lies and arrogance that you know more than anyone that's actually worked in Segas. Like the fact you got KENZEN plainly wrong? Or Naka's supposed involvement in Sonic 2. Three people have disputed these claims of yours in this topic alone and in many topics in the past. You're totally inconsistant in your facts and claims as well. Face it, you have no idea what you are on about.

[ROJM]

Again, I think you're missing the point. I think you're both agreeing that people can become overly associated with the project relative to their involvement, whether by accident or design.


I will also reiterate that sonic 2 was STI, for the most part, not sonic team.

There's no point JB. You can only argue at an ignoramous until you're blue in the face. Its becoming obvious now that this "TA" person simply hasn't been playing games let alone know how the industry works as long as he claims. When two people on two different issues in the same topic essentially show him the facts on things and clearly proves him wrong he still maintains it. This has been a running theme for a while now be it VC having flopped and never getting sequels, to the Suzuki semi retiriment crap which has now emerged he's actually semi retiring in September of this year and other countless things including BD he's been proven wrong on. He's the type of person who would argue the wall is painted white when its actually painted black. if it was a difference of opinion fair enough but the fact that you posted that article about Naka leaving when he was maintaining that he didn't leave and was involved in all stages of sonic 2's development has to give you an idea that this person isn't what he claims to be. Especially when its common knowledge to most longterm Sega fans.
Oh by the way how'd ya like your first Kudos?

[Team Andromeda]

Sega didn't credit any staff for the creation of the game just MJ.

This is where you just make your self look laughable . 1) finish both the games (arcade and Console)to see the SOJ staff credited for the game .2) It's based on MJ Moon Walker -so it was inevitable  that like with Peter Jacksons King Kong, MJ was going to feature in the games title

The fact that MJ helped with the game design: rescuing the children(insert joke here) was his idea and having such a BIG star working and behind your game (and MJ was one of the biggest around at the time) , It was obvious and both wise for SEGA to push that home . Next you be telling only that Egawa Sugoru got credited for his game, not the SEGA staff, that Ferrari made F355 not SEGA.

On the LATTER games, proving my point again.

You really are never well briefed or have any of the fact to hand... as is always the case . Madden designed the plays for the 1st game onthe PC, not that anyone ever thought or thinks Madden  made/makes the games on his own. Its a licence .....and like every corp you'll push it in the titles, more so if you get a BIG star or a famous sports person behind your game.  What next James Buster Douglas made the Mega Drive ?, when it's nothing more than a port of pretty shit coin up game, that had nothing to do with the man.

I named it. You know that. That's it

You haven't and still can't. Those facts that speaks volumes

Again you plainly lied again

So you've never owned the Sonic games or never finished them ?  I.... thought as much

Anyone that plays and is able to finish the games will clearly See Naka/Yu2 credited as the main programmer of Sonic 1, 2, 3 S&K and Producer of both III and S&K. Simple stone wall facts of the matter.

Go on break a rule , own and play one of the games you like to talk about.   

Not for Sonic 2 he wasn't. despite what the credits say he was in a very limited role in that game

No he was just head programmer . Give up now

Anyone at the time knew that considering he left, IE physically left at the period of the main stages of that titles development only to return towards the end

Dear GOD the SEGA man that likes to thinks he knows it all, but that knows nothing . Naka-san left SEGA Japan (Read: not STI not SEGA America)Where he went to SEGA America/STI where the whole game was developed.

Then i guess you missed the interview articles when SOA decided to spend big bucks to get big names for their sports games that SOJ wasn't sure that they should do it but relented

You just make your self look ever more foolish . All that proves is SEGA America did have autonomy on matters they felt important, even down to changing one of the best soundtracks ever created in Sonic CD

MD sonic series was essentially a team effort

I've got news for you, that's the case with more or less every game made after the 16 bit Generation

Most decisions would have to have SOJ approval

I've got news for you, that happens with every Multinational Corp. You think SONY America could buy up Naughty Dog with out SONY Japan approval  , That MS Japan could spend millions on Mistwalker, with out MS USA approval ?  The Paymasters will have the final say on any matter when it comes to spending money or approving R&D projects
 

It isn't really

The Saturn version looks miles and miles better graphically, but I seriously doubt,  you've ever played the Saturn version tbh.

I never said Sonic Team were the laughing stock of Sega.

I serious getting board of your lies . When some mad out that Sonic Team had new idea, new strategies one of the few teams that at last gets it inside SOJ. You had a good laugh on SEGA Nerds,and everybody knows it .

Now do your self a favour,  plug your self into a SEGA and try and finish Sonic II, III, S&K, Moonwalker and watch the end credits.


Now lets keep it to Sonic matter , from now on




 

[ROJM]

This is where you just make your self look laughable . 1) finish both the games (arcade and Console)to see the SOJ staff credited for the game .2) It's based on MJ Moon Walker -so it was inevitable  that like with Peter Jacksons King Kong, MJ was going to feature in the games title

The fact that MJ helped with the game design: rescuing the children(insert joke here) was his idea and having such a BIG star working and behind your game (and MJ was one of the biggest around at the time) , It was obvious and both wise for SEGA to push that home . Next you be telling only that Egawa Sugoru got credited for his game, not the SEGA staff, that Ferrari made F355 not SEGA.

You really are never well briefed or have any of the fact to hand... as is always the case . Madden designed the plays for the 1st game onthe PC, not that anyone ever thought or thinks Madden  made/makes the games on his own. Its a licence .....and like every corp you'll push it in the titles, more so if you get a BIG star or a famous sports person behind your game.  What next James Buster Douglas made the Mega Drive ?, when it's nothing more than a port of pretty shit coin up game, that had nothing to do with the man.



You haven't and still can't. Those facts that speaks volumes

So you've never owned the Sonic games or never finished them ?  I.... thought as much

Anyone that plays and is able to finish the games will clearly See Naka/Yu2 credited as the main programmer of Sonic 1, 2, 3 S&K and Producer of both III and S&K. Simple stone wall facts of the matter.

Go on break a rule , own and play one of the games you like to talk about.   

No he was just head programmer . Give up now


Dear GOD the SEGA man that likes to thinks he knows it all, but that knows nothing . Naka-san left SEGA Japan (Read: not STI not SEGA America)Where he went to SEGA America/STI where the whole game was developed.

You just make your self look ever more foolish . All that proves is SEGA America did have autonomy on matters they felt important, even down to changing one of the best soundtracks ever created in Sonic CD

I've got news for you, that's the case with more or less every game made after the 16 bit Generation
 

I've got news for you, that happens with every Multinational Corp. You think SONY America could buy up Naughty Dog with out SONY Japan approval  , That MS Japan could spend millions on Mistwalker, with out MS USA approval ?  The Paymasters will have the final say on any matter when it comes to spending money or approving R&D projects
 

The Saturn version looks miles and miles better graphically, but I seriously doubt,  you've ever played the Saturn version tbh.

I serious getting board of your lies . When some mad out that Sonic Team had new idea, new strategies one of the few teams that at last gets it inside SOJ. You had a good laugh on SEGA Nerds,and everybody knows it .

Now do your self a favour,  plug your self into a SEGA and try and finish Sonic II, III, S&K, Moonwalker and watch the end credits.


Now lets keep it to Sonic matter , from now on




 

Yawn, I could reply individually to those simple comments but life's too short. But the facts is this. I didn't derail this thread you did like most other threads you reply on by showing off on things you clearly know nothing about. What usually starts out as a good thread gets turned into the TA knows everything or the TA look at what i got thread about games that has no relation to the actual topic at hand. Just like you did with the kenzen subject. The simple truth is you got found out. The fact that three different people on three different subjects within the last two pages of this topic called you up on the supposed facts you declared and each time you couldn't sustain a fact or simple evidence to prove your point. That speaks volumes. You lost get over it. You can say this and that about me but the truth is each and everytime I have these fact type discussions most of the people that reply in them usually agree with me and they're just as knowledgable about games as we are.Correct that, as I am. Because its usually people who are staff members or has some activity where they look into or involved in Sega practices. So if i'm talking shit, believe you me those guys(since its usually the same people) would call me up on it but guess what they don't and its not down to any personal love for me. Since this topic within a topic has started you've basically lied spun words and mudsling in order to distract the truth to what you really are. But that doesn't win any debate as you already know. You even contridicted yourself as well on two different occassions. All it shows is that you already lost when you resort to that and that was down to the fact that you realised no one was agreeing with you.  So call me whatever you like, bottom line is you lost.

[Team Andromeda]

So if i'm talking shit, believe you me those guys(since its usually the same people) would call me up on it but guess what they don't and its not down to any personal love for me.

You don't always talk shit, but you never help your self... with your attitude/the endless insults on anyone that you happen to disagree with . You can have a great debate and a big disagreement, but while the need for the Insults?

BTW, No I don't know it all, and I really doubt the staff working inside SEGA know everything or every little goings on . What I will do is have debate and now again post, made my case quite clear, and sometimes use  quote's or interviews to try and back those claims up.
I think Sonic Team have made tremendous steps forward and the slagging off that Sonic Team and Iizuka-san get not really justified any more (sure in the past they were, not know). That 1) doesn't mean that people are wrong to knock the Team or 2). Should be allowed to post their feelings, Just expect me or likes of Sharky to have a disagreement and air our views, which is perfectly natural & healthy on a board.


Sonic Gen is shaping up to be one of the best things to come out of SEGA in years... The tech is incredible:the idea of using both classic and modern days stages in the same game inspired (and no doubt will be copied by others) and more importantly it's shaping up to the best Sonic game in years and a outright AAA platform game

[Trippled]

The tech is incredible:the idea of using both classic and modern days stages in the same game inspired (and no doubt will be copied by others)

I kind of wish that they never made Sonic 4, and have Generations as their first entry of return to Classic Sonic gameplay. That would be SEGA's identified take on bringing back 2d gameplay. Nintendo modernised it, Capcom let it stay untouched, SEGA seperates the new and old  and puts it into one game.

[Barry the Nomad]

Rumor has it that rooftop run might be playable at Gamescom. Hope it's correct!

[Radrappy]

Rumor has it that rooftop run might be playable at Gamescom. Hope it's correct!

yay!  It'll be just like playing sonic unleashed!  I guess the classic sonic spagonia could be cool though. 

[ROJM]

You don't always talk shit, but you never help your self... with your attitude/the endless insults on anyone that you happen to disagree with . You can have a great debate and a big disagreement, but while the need for the Insults?

BTW, No I don't know it all, and I really doubt the staff working inside SEGA know everything or every little goings on . What I will do is have debate and now again post, made my case quite clear, and sometimes use  quote's or interviews to try and back those claims up.
I think Sonic Team have made tremendous steps forward and the slagging off that Sonic Team and Iizuka-san get not really justified any more (sure in the past they were, not know). That 1) doesn't mean that people are wrong to knock the Team or 2). Should be allowed to post their feelings, Just expect me or likes of Sharky to have a disagreement and air our views, which is perfectly natural & healthy on a board.


Sonic Gen is shaping up to be one of the best things to come out of SEGA in years... The tech is incredible:the idea of using both classic and modern days stages in the same game inspired (and no doubt will be copied by others) and more importantly it's shaping up to the best Sonic game in years and a outright AAA platform game

Yet you haven't actually answered that question. The only one who talks shit is you for example you contradicted yourself again. You've said in the last two posts that you were done yet you keep going on and on and on. I can't be bothered which is why I haven't continued countering any points you keep repeating because there's no need to. Everyone who participated in this topic has come to the same conclusion that I raised. Everyone who participated in this topic has come to the same conclusion that aki raised. And there was evidence that backed it up. The only one who is looking stupid is you. And dregging up old arguments from the past which were long resolved isn't going to work anymore. Anyone can see from reading the last three pages of this topic that you not only lost this argument but you've lied,distracted and slung endless insults. Something you do whenever you are losing an argument.You lost,get over it and please stop derailing this thread or i'll have to report you to the mods.

[ROJM]

I kind of wish that they never made Sonic 4, and have Generations as their first entry of return to Classic Sonic gameplay. That would be SEGA's identified take on bringing back 2d gameplay. Nintendo modernised it, Capcom let it stay untouched, SEGA seperates the new and old  and puts it into one game.

To be honest Sega brought back their version of 2d gameplay with the  Mario "tribute" POLE'S ADVENTURE for wiiware. And then the countless mobile games. Of course GENERATIONS experiment would only work if the game has a good reception from fans and critics alike.

[Team Andromeda]

And dregging up old arguments from the past which were long resolved isn't going to work anymore.

You keep on brining up old sorts, I'm dull enough to take the bait.

You've said in the last two posts that you were done yet you keep going on and on and on.

I tried... but then you see you post stuff like SEGA not giving credit to the Staff for making Moonwalker, which simply isn't true, one can't help but post back

The only one who is looking stupid is you

Coming from the one that thinks Naka-san had nothing to with Sonic II. Still can't name this game that he didn't work on, but takes credit for . This is so very much to take.

Everyone who participated in this topic has come to the same conclusion that aki raised. And there was evidence that backed it up.

I have in most cases always backed up my thoughts, The real difficult one is Sonic IV and Dimps credits- which I accept can make it look like Dimps made the game, but Sonic Team are complete control freaks and in almost every case handling everything to do with level and Art design in their games. Everything else... Kezan Budget, Kenzan development period Yakuza Budget, Naka-san involvement with Sonic, Sonic Team turning a corner, 32X  I stand by

[Barry the Nomad]

yay!  It'll be just like playing sonic unleashed!  I guess the classic sonic spagonia could be cool though. 

Yeah, I'm excited for every modern stage BUT this one. Not that I hate it, it's just that I have the feeling it'll play as an alternate Unleashed map rather than a whole new experience. Heroes stage will be great as we won't have to deal with the Heores gameplay mechanics and (I hope) Sonic will shut up for a majority of the stage. My one major beef with Heroes was all the talking! "Look at that robot! Leave this to Tails. I'll take the lead! Knuckles, you've got this! Got it! Hwah! Hwah! Hwah!". The '06 stage will be fun simply because you aren't playing that broken game. Colors stage will look great in HD. But the Unleashed stage... meh, same thing but with minor improvements. Unless, of course, they make it a nighttime stage with daytime gameplay. Why not? I mean the Sonic of Generations can't turn into a Werehog at night so why not allow Generations Sonic to race through Spagonia at night?

[Barry the Nomad]

TA and ROJM, if you ain't talkin' Sonic Generations then stop the debate.

Also the back and forth bickering is getting to be a bit much.

Would you want a separate topic to debate in?

[Team Andromeda]

fair point Barry

The '06 stage will be fun simply because you aren't playing that broken game.

The things is there's some very nice stages in Sonic 06 (Crisis City, Wave Ocean, Kingdom Valley, Radical Train) Its let down by a frame rate and controls from hell, which is such a shame