Where did it really go wrong in the sega console era

[Shigs]

You could say it started as far back as Sega C.D. That was a tiny bit of a flop, but I can't blame them for going the CD ROM route. It's where all the game companies were going at the time and any business could see there was some potential there.

Nope, if you want to see the exact time when Sega fucked up so royal it killed them in the hardware market, look no further than the 32X and the horrid launch of the Saturn. Instead of focusing all their efforts on the Saturn, Sega decided to do this half-assed in-between of a Genesis add-on. It got ZERO support and died within a year, but those who did buy it probably felt screwed when the Saturn was launched less than a year later.

With the Saturn, they didn't even give the system enough time for hype and marketing. Just BAM! Announce it's available now right during E3 thus giving Sony plenty of time to properly market their new system. Not only that, it pissed off third parties that were planning games for the system's launch and since most 3rd parties were unaware, there was little games out the entire summer it was launched. Worst. Gaming mistake. Ever.

Despite how awesome the Dreamcast was, these back to back bombs is what killed any hype for that system. Not to mention Sony's Playstation brand became huge due to the Saturn's failure and the fact that the PS2 came with the cheapest DVD player at the time. Even the PS2' shitty launch titles didn't keep people away from buying the system.

In short, Sega's complete fuck up of the Saturn let Sony succeed and make Playstation a big brand name which in turn helped kill the Dreamcast. Once Sega was bought by Sammy and went third party, the magic they had for making big IP's and quality games died for a very long time (with the exception of Yakuza and Valkeria Chronicles). Only in the past 4 years or so have they started to turn things around with their software. However, once again their bad past is hurting their current present. Great Sega games like binary Domain suffer because of it. And just when Sega was finally getting more respect among fans, Aliens CM happened. UGH!

[ROJM]

Actually the DC sold way better in its 1st year than the Genesis did but there was a world of difference for all sorts of reasons . In the DC days SEGA was losing $200 million a year , selling the DC at a huge loss and trying to take on the might of not just Nintendo, but also SONY and then even MS, never mind the difference  in the cost and size of the Teams needed to make DC games

And what became the more succesful? And the odds was more against Sega at the time of the genesis than it was with the DC. Leadership counts and SOA like all of Sega at that time had poor leadership across the board.

For the last time !. Pippin was the 1st console where with no add-on's, no additional peripherals, no extra subs  you could enter the world of On-Line straight out of the box (the same was true with the DC) Everything you needed to go on-line was has standard in the box of the console .

That is the difference

No. i said consoles using modem tech. I have ALWAYS said that. That covers the whole spectrum. It makes no difference who or how they , it the fact remains that consoles was using modem tech BEFORE and i repeat BEFORE the pippin. Using your insane logic its like saying the DC is the first system to use online tech when that tech was available for game systems before the DC was even a sparkle in anyone's eye. So for the last time be quiet on this, if it was n't for the previous systems using modem tech you wouldn't have gotten a system that ended up packing it in the system itself. It wasn't the first to use the technology and never was it just evolved from it like the current systems have evolved(stolen) ideas started by Sega. And you call yourself an expert.LOL what a joke.

It blows away your rubbish that SOJ didn't help SOA and worked against them, they only let the 32X have one its best teams make a laugh title for it

No it actually blows your rubbish about the 32x being all SOA's idea. Which as anyone who actually knows these things it never was. The SOA vs SOJ debacle happened during the Saturn era not the 32x. Didn't you know that? But of course not surprised that you get confused and mixed up about common knowledge info.

The reasons are quite obvious. SEGA Japan knew it had AM#2 working on Saturn Daytona USA and SOA needed help getting software ready for the 32X. So let the CS team handle the port of VR to the 32X .

Which strengthens the point that if they were even interested in using any 32x titles they would't have bothered to farm it out and license, the game was not done on a second party basis but licensed out and published by another company.

It plays like shit and if you think that Street Fighter the movie looks much better than CC then look again . Both not only look like shit they play like shit

Playing and looking is totally different things but of course not surprised that you can't tell the difference. Considering you keep telling me how superior the saturn is and all you think BM actually looks comparable to a game on a system that has low resolution/colours and everything else? LOL!



 

Doom, Star Wars, VR Delux would have done nicely. 

Never designated for the saturn which is why SW and VR came out on that system.

You said a 'few titles' which is more than 1 and so far all we got from you is 1 title .

Yes from Sega, capcom EA Konami Acclaim and several others that announced upcoming titles for the 32x which was announced around the summer. But obviously the 32x was mismanaged and they all moved on to saturn but none of the titles announced moved to the saturn or PSX as far as the third parties are concerned. This is common knowledge to anyone around at the time so you supposed to know it. Not suprising that you don't.

I deal in facts

No you try to sideline the issue when you can't answer any question given to you.

and Capcom were committed to the PS from day one and every developer around the world gets developer kits for new systems , that's a huge difference from making games for the format

They were also commited to 32x and the saturn. They were part of a company who at that time had a bigger rep than Sony did in the games market. But again you'd have to have been there to understand that.

 

Well then you should know that in the mid 1990's Capcom broke away from the Nintendo lock out deal .

Funny because i already eluded to that. Again I know you get confused but i'll spell it out. AGAIN. When Capcom got out of the deal they would have wanted to exploit their IPs as well as they could. their games that they licensed out to Sega did well on the MD and they would have been happy to sign up with Sega on the new platforms they were peddling. That included the 32x. Just because it ultimatly failed did not mean they didn't sign up for the system initially. Remember lots of companies at one time sign up for platforms that can go bust when it reaches an open market. Sega at the time was the strong and dominant competitor who wasn't failing. So nearly anyone wanted a piece of that pie.



 

[ROJM]

You could say it started as far back as Sega C.D. That was a tiny bit of a flop, but I can't blame them for going the CD ROM route. It's where all the game companies were going at the time and any business could see there was some potential there.

Actually the Mega CD is probably the more succesful cd rom add on at that time considering it was available in all the major markets and sold quite decently. It was far from a flop. The way Sega approced some of the games and schedules was a bit of a flop but the system itself despite it all did quite well for Sega.

Nope, if you want to see the exact time when Sega fucked up so royal it killed them in the hardware market, look no further than the 32X and the horrid launch of the Saturn. Instead of focusing all their efforts on the Saturn, Sega decided to do this half-assed in-between of a Genesis add-on. It got ZERO support and died within a year, but those who did buy it probably felt screwed when the Saturn was launched less than a year later.

The 32x didn't get zero support, for an add on it did quite well at launch. It was the Saturn's launch that screwed things up mainly because Sega couldn't anticipate the competition from Sony and wasn't prepared for it. Sega of america was forced to abandon plans and rush things quite literally when they realised how serious the competition was.

With the Saturn, they didn't even give the system enough time for hype and marketing. Just BAM! Announce it's available now right during E3 thus giving Sony plenty of time to properly market their new system. Not only that, it pissed off third parties that were planning games for the system's launch and since most 3rd parties were unaware, there was little games out the entire summer it was launched. Worst. Gaming mistake. Ever.

Yep. The screw up was that sega had always planned to market the saturn as a more high end machine which was why it was originally priced a bit high. The months preceding the saturn's launch was that it was going to be quite expensive and Kalinske seemed to be going with the idea that the system was going to compete with the 3do instead of it being an out and out games system. So the entire approch as far as SOA was concerned with the saturn was wrong from day one. They were focusing on the idea of multimedia when Sony focused on the new style 3d gaming which Sega defined in the arcades with VR and DAYTONA. Sony didn't really defeat Sega as much as it was Sega themselves that defeated Sega. The point of the 32x was to be a bridge between the megadrive and Saturn for those who wouldn't get the system due to the price and to prolong the megadrive's lifespan. Their second mistake was the 32x's price for an add on wasn't competitive enough to justify everyone getting it. despite the launch the system within a year and a half sales dropped off significantly. Also the plans started to change and evaporate when the saturn became the sole focus in order to compete with the competition that sony was bringing and the third parties followed suit. pissed off with Sega after commiting to the platform and it got worse with what happened during the saturn run.

Despite how awesome the Dreamcast was, these back to back bombs is what killed any hype for that system. Not to mention Sony's Playstation brand became huge due to the Saturn's failure and the fact that the PS2 came with the cheapest DVD player at the time. Even the PS2' shitty launch titles didn't keep people away from buying the system.

Why would it? people were sold on the brand name and if its strong enough, they'll flock to it regardless of how crap it may initially seem. Sony of course managed to improve on the quality of titles but also by the time of the PS2 launch we had a different type of gamer than the ones that had previously existed during the genesis/SNES era. We had an audience that seemed to think it was sony that made gaming cool, sonythat made games for adults(despite that being the case through previous generations0 sony that made gaming mainstream(which was never true) and whatever lies sony started peddling. it inded was a hellish era to be a gamer surrounded by that propagandist nonsense.

In short, Sega's complete fuck up of the Saturn let Sony succeed and make Playstation a big brand name which in turn helped kill the Dreamcast. Once Sega was bought by Sammy and went third party, the magic they had for making big IP's and quality games died for a very long time (with the exception of Yakuza and Valkeria Chronicles). Only in the past 4 years or so have they started to turn things around with their software. However, once again their bad past is hurting their current present. Great Sega games like binary Domain suffer because of it. And just when Sega was finally getting more respect among fans, Aliens CM happened. UGH!

Yeah, but i think the problem with Sega and their ip magic existed before the takeover because the consumer market divison focused on creating mainly games for japan and not focusing on creating the usual sega games that had a mass market appeal like they use to.Oddly enough they did this during the Saturn era when the saturn was popular in japan. After the Dc they reverted to type and focused on the saturn IPs that proved to be succesful before. it also didn't help mind you that the games that they were planning to western appeal got canned because of several setbacks. The game they were planning for the xbox/ps2 might have been their first proper hit. The problem as you have stated is the management. While the things have changed within sega as a software company the practices of the management hasn't. The only time when Sega "kicked ass" was when they had a management team who was willing to take the risks as their software divisions always did with the type of game they produced. There's no mistake that when sega had a maverick leader which suited the teams maverick attitude to gaming that they quickly became the dominate video games company. The moment they lost all that it quickly melted away.Its a shame they haven't been able to find a maverick or strong leader. This is what the company was founded on after all with Rosen.

[Team Andromeda]

And what became the more succesful?

Well when your parent company is not losing money  and allows you to spend millions and millions on PR you can do wonders . SEGA America spend over $30 million on pushing Sonic 3 alone (just one game), SEGA Europe spend over £64 million pushing the Mega Drive in 1994/5 and yet SEGA America were expected to sell the DC to America for its life time with $100 million for it's total  PR budget (for all the games and the console)

With what they had SEGA America did wonders with the DC, you'll find .

No. i said consoles using modem tech.

 If it was modem tech I wouldn't even be on about the Pippin or DC . Since even the Mega Drive had modem tech . I was on about standard (as you know full well) and the 1st console that allowed its users to go On-Line straight out of the box (with no extra hardware or software) was the Pippin.

The SOA vs SOJ debacle happened during the Saturn era not the 32x

Where have you been mate ? The main people behind the 32X (Joe Miller, Scott Bayless) have all now given Interviews and all confirm that SEGA America and Japan worked well together even in the Saturn days .

strengthens the point that if they were even interested in using any 32x titles they would't have bothered to farm it out and license, the game was not done on a second party basis but licensed out and published by another company

?

The likes of Stellar Assault says hello . 

Considering you keep telling me how superior the saturn is and all you think BM actually looks comparable to a game on a system that has low resolution/colours and everything else

What is BM for starters and on the one hand you say the 32X can't complete with the Saturn and on the other you always talk about VF looking better on the 32X .

You're all over the shop

[ROJM]

Well when your parent company is not losing money  and allows you to spend millions and millions on PR you can do wonders . SEGA America spend over $30 million on pushing Sonic 3 alone (just one game), SEGA Europe spend over £64 million pushing the Mega Drive in 1994/5 and yet SEGA America were expected to sell the DC to America for its life time with $100 million for it's total  PR budget (for all the games and the console)
With what they had SEGA America did wonders with the DC, you'll find

.That  was after the fact that they made the MD successful. Were talking about the first two years which you got to make it matter and moore and his predecessor simply failed in that.

If it was modem tech I wouldn't even be on about the Pippin or DC . Since even the Mega Drive had modem tech . I was on about standard (as you know full well) and the 1st console that allowed its users to go On-Line straight out of the box (with no extra hardware or software) was the Pippin.

No i mentioned the first console to use modem tech. You got it wrong and can't admit it.

Where have you been mate ? The main people behind the 32X (Joe Miller, Scott Bayless) have all now given Interviews and all confirm that SEGA America and Japan worked well together even in the Saturn days .

The project was always initiated by SOJ it was never SOA's personal baby as you have tried to claim numerous times. Their involvement was simply down to the fact that the USA was the biggest market so obviously they needed SOA's input for that and the Saturn. Things changed when they got jazzed by the success of the saturn.

The likes of Stellar Assault says hello . 

And your point is what?

What is BM for starters and on the one hand you say the 32X can't complete with the Saturn and on the other you always talk about VF looking better on the 32X .

Compared to a buggy VF saturn game it does. But the textures and everything is obviously richer because of what the saturn was able to do. its not rocket science.

You're all over the shop

I'm not the one who mistaken the pippin as the first system to have a modem when clearly it wasn't and then backtrack what was said by saying"i meant included inside". its just  another example that you haven't a clue what you are on about and can only go by things from hindsight or what you have obviously read in an inaccurate retro games mag.

[Team Andromeda]

That  was after the fact that they made the MD successful

SEGA had plenty of cash in those days and the cost of 16 bit software and hardware was totally different to that of DC hardware and software . If SOA had been given granted Mega Drive levels of PR money they would have done a even better job , sure they made a few mistakes but they did more right than wrong , incredible  given they had just $100 million to do it all with.

No i mentioned the first console to use modem tech.

No quite and as you well know I said 'standard'.

The project was always initiated by SOJ it was never SOA's personal baby as you have tried to claim numerous times.

No I've always said after SEGA dropped plans for the Giga Drive and the Jupiter was the time the 32X/Mars idea should have been canned . SEGA America though it was a goer and took over the project while SOJ went full hog with the Saturn .

And your point is what

A 32X game brought to the Saturn and published by SEGA Japan

Compared to a buggy VF saturn game it does.

Clipping was the only issues with Saturn VF, but that's launch software; it not liking Sonic Adv didn't have its own clipping issues . That's what happens when the Team doesn't enough time . But just compare VF Remix and VF II to VF on the Saturn, or Sonic Adv II to Sonic Adv on the DC. To see what having more time does for the developers .

But the textures and everything is obviously richer because of what the saturn was able to do

Saturn VF blows away 32X VF and its nothing to do with textures since Model 1 didn't do any textures in the 1st place . Saturn VF is just handling far more polygons for starers, running  in a higher resolution and with far better sound effect and brilliant CD music . That's what no being a Mega Drive add-on does for you . 







 

[ROJM]

SEGA had plenty of cash in those days and the cost of 16 bit software and hardware was totally different to that of DC hardware and software . If SOA had been given granted Mega Drive levels of PR money they would have done a even better job , sure they made a few mistakes but they did more right than wrong , incredible  given they had just $100 million to do it all with.

some of us tried telling you that in the NEC/Sega debate and you claimed NEC had more money to splash with while ignoring the reality that their games division didn't. and if you really think sega didn't have the money to splash with for the dc launch, which they clearly did then you are more off your rocker than i thought.

No quite and as you well know I said 'standard'.

nope you didn't. end of.

No I've always said after SEGA dropped plans for the Giga Drive and the Jupiter was the time the 32X/Mars idea should have been canned . SEGA America though it was a goer and took over the project while SOJ went full hog with the Saturn .

no you never. you blamed soa for creating the 32x when the facts estabilshed suggested otherwise. dont try to change what you said now.

A 32X game brought to the Saturn and published by SEGA Japan

you don't say.funny i seem to remember saying the majority of 32x werent designated to saturn. you see to have a majority you need a minority. simple maths actually. remember that. it doesn't prove anything apart from my original point.

Clipping was the only issues with Saturn VF, but that's launch software; it not liking Sonic Adv didn't have its own clipping issues . That's what happens when the Team doesn't enough time . But just compare VF Remix and VF II to VF on the Saturn, or Sonic Adv II to Sonic Adv on the DC. To see what having more time does for the developers .

vf had more issues than just clipping it was a bug eyed mess. but of course i wouldn't expect someone with their saturn
blinders would say anything less.

Saturn VF blows away 32X VF and its nothing to do with textures since Model 1 didn't do any textures in the 1st place . Saturn VF is just handling far more polygons for starers, running  in a higher resolution and with far better sound effect and brilliant CD music . That's what no being a Mega Drive add-on does for you . 

yet you seem to think that a 32x game like cyberbrawl/cc could fit in with the saturn and that battle monsters didn't look better than it/ keep changing the argument for your own purposes.not suprising really...

[Team Andromeda]

nope you didn't. end of.

I did

Re: Where did it really go wrong in the sega console era
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 10:39:00 PM »
QuoteModifyRemove
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SEGA used Windows CE technology and originally, Microsoft was supposed to supply an online service for SEGA, but they screwed SEGA and decided to make their own console. Peter Moore was in full control of Sega of America and he basically screwed SEGA as well,

So wrong on so many levels . MS provided a OS developement system for a platform, which is what MS  do (being a software corp) and Peter Moore  and SOA did more for the SEGA Dreamcast than Japan and Europe; It was though divsions that let the side down with poor hardware and software sales and it was SOJ that pulled the plug, not SEGA America

Quote
, SEGA was indeed the first console to make online gaming mainstream

The list of on-line games for the DC isn't that big mate , and long before the DC the likes of Saturn was talking console gamers on the Web and the DC wasn't even the 1st console to ship with a Modem as standard : that honour belongs to the Pippin

End of Line ...

some of us tried telling you that in the NEC/Sega debate and you claimed NEC had more money to splash with while ignoring the reality that their games division didn't

NEC had more money that SONY back in the 90's NEC is and was massive. Anway one hundred million dollars to lauch a console and maintain the PR for over 2 years isn't that much money for the USA at all. SEGA Europe used to spend 64 million pounds  a year on pushing the Mega Drive , Atari spend some   40 to 60 million on pushing the Jag and SEGA America spent over 30 million dollars on pushing one game alone with Sonic III.

So what SOA did with it tiny budget for over 2 years was quite a feat

no you never. you blamed soa for creating the 32x when the facts estabilshed suggested otherwise.

My stance on the 32X has never changed at all .

funny i seem to remember saying the majority of 32x werent designated to saturn

Like usual, you tried to be clever and have been caught out . Also you being the SEGA man should know that the likes of AMOK, Virtual Golf started life as 32X games before being moved up to the Saturn .

vf had more issues than just clipping it was a bug eyed mess

C'Mom then list the bugs (other than clipping )

yet you seem to think that a 32x game like cyberbrawl

Oh dear we've remembered that Model 1 didn't handle any texture mapping ?. Never mind, there was plenty of poor looking games on the Saturn like with Street Fighter the Movie or Gale Race ; both of which wouldn't look out of place on the 32X. Not that it matters VF on the Saturn completely blows away the 32X version 

[3raser]

There is nothing they can do about it now, but I will share what I think went wrong. Instead of making add ons, they should have just made a new console. Instead of the Dreamcast's hardware, they should have waited to produce it in the late 2000s with better hardware. All the other companies waited until very recently to develope new consoles.

[ROJM]

I did




End of Line ...

Talking to yourself again? LOL!
I dont see what you're pointing out. nothing to do with what you were discussing about modems...

NEC had more money that SONY back in the 90's NEC is and was massive. Anway one hundred million dollars to lauch a console and maintain the PR for over 2 years isn't that much money for the USA at all. SEGA Europe used to spend 64 million pounds  a year on pushing the Mega Drive , Atari spend some   40 to 60 million on pushing the Jag and SEGA America spent over 30 million dollars on pushing one game alone with Sonic III.

And your point was sega didn't have the money back then despite being one of the large operators getting into the console market. NEC is a large company but their games consumer division isn't and it never had the money to take on Sega internationally. A smaller company who had more of a warchest to play around with compared to a division in a larger company who didn't since they would be limited to the funds they are allowed to access because of the budget that would exist for NEC and what they give to all their divisons overall.

So what SOA did with it tiny budget for over 2 years was quite a feat

so you say.

My stance on the 32X has never changed at all .

Not according to jonboy and anyone else who has seen your comments on the subject.

Like usual, you tried to be clever and have been caught out . Also you being the SEGA man should know that the likes of AMOK, Virtual Golf started life as 32X games before being moved up to the Saturn

What part of minority don't you understand? minority. for a minority to exist there has to be an MAJORITY. The FACT that most 32x games didn't weren't even designated to even exist without the add on indicates that they were never going to become saturn titles or any other 32bit console titles. i haven't been caught out at anything because i don't need to lie. Unlike yourself.

C'Mom then list the bugs (other than clipping )

I've done so years ago. And the fact that you dont know and cant see it speaks volumes..

Oh dear we've remembered that Model 1 didn't handle any texture mapping ?. Never mind, there was plenty of poor looking games on the Saturn like with Street Fighter the Movie or Gale Race ; both of which wouldn't look out of place on the 32X. Not that it matters VF on the Saturn completely blows away the 32X version 

Oh dear are you losing your memory? Seems like you are. for someone who claims that the saturn was the beast of a system you seem to forget that even the poor looking games would look better than a system that was an add on for a console that was limited in its processing and color palette. or can't you count? VF saturn's buggy version just didn't compare to the excellent job on the 32x version. Now we know you are so blinded by the saturn so much that you have to change historical sega facts to suit your little fantasy that the saturn was an important system when it doesn't even blip on most sega fan's radars outside of japan and the hard sega creed but regardless of that VF was a huge disapointment for a system that SHOULD have done better. but we always keep making excuses for it wont we?

[ROJM]

There is nothing they can do about it now, but I will share what I think went wrong. Instead of making add ons, they should have just made a new console. Instead of the Dreamcast's hardware, they should have waited to produce it in the late 2000s with better hardware. All the other companies waited until very recently to develope new consoles.

if sega did that then we'd wont be enjoying the type of games and tech for consoles now. Like i said the 32x was a good idea but executed wrong. if sega wanted to guarantee the saturn in the west and not lose the MD market they should have created a Powerbase converter style system for the saturn which would have meant that they could have still kept the MD market going and bring those users to the saturn.

[Team Andromeda]

I dont see what you're pointing out.

The list of on-line games for the DC isn't that big mate , and long before the DC the likes of Saturn was talking console gamers on the Web and the DC wasn't even the 1st console to ship with a Modem as standard : that honour belongs to the Pippin

So sorry I was talking about a console that shipped with a Modem has standard.

And your point was sega didn't have the money back then despite being one of the large operators getting into the console market

SEGA were making massive losses in 1998 and 1999 so money was tight and an issue . Launching a console in the USA and giving the PR Team $100 dollars to push that system and its games for a period of 2 years isn't that much money in the grand scheme.

So with what they had, SOA did brilliant really .

Not according to jonboy

I've never ever changed my stance on the 32X at all. It has always been a waste of space and a utterly pointless idea imo

The FACT that most 32x games didn't weren't even designated to even exist without the add on indicates that they were never going to become saturn titles

? . Lots of games will get push up to new consoles . Shenmue  Sonic Adv both meant to the Saturn titles . Pikmin III meant to be a Cube title . Story Of Thor II meant to be a Mega Drive title , Kameo meant to be Cube, then Xbox title before ending up on the 360

It happens

I've done so years ago.

No you haven't . List the bugs in Saturn VF

for someone who claims that the saturn was the beast of a system you seem to forget that even the poor looking games would look better than a system that was an add on for a console that was limited in its processing and color palette.

No matter the power of the system would can have plenty of crap looking games for it. Gale Racer would have looked out of place on the 32X. But that what happens with new system, new tools to learn and a mega tight development deadline to hit

VF saturn's buggy version just didn't compare to the excellent job on the 32x version

You still can't list the bugs and anyone will know this looks and sounds better

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Q9DGMXFEA


than this

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH8f_soV6lQ

[joe]

After Genesis, East and West Sega butted heads on everything.  Right there is a huge recipe for disaster.  BUT, the Sega CD didn't live up to the hype.  32X (or any add-on) carries a stigma of, "don't expect it to be as good as a new system), then the Saturn was barley progammable to most.  Dreamcast was a fresh start...but the damage was done.  When Sega announced the Deamcast was being halted, I remember almost vomiting. 

[Barry the Nomad]

I learned of the Dreamcast being halted on X-Play. I can not look at this man's face without getting angry:

[George]

Funny how I just wrote a dreamcast article about the modem changing gaming.