Author Topic: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate  (Read 34913 times)

Offline Sharky

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2015, 09:59:41 am »
Okay no he never said the words 'I want gay marriage banned.' But I think it's pretty clear that he does hold that belief...

You just told me that the struggle for black people to gain equality isn't the same as the struggle for gays... So why you're comparing homosexuality with the Nazi party is absolutely beyond me. At least with women, black people and now gays it's the same basic thing; people who want to be treated as equal citizens... What a 1930's/40's German nationalist party has to do with gay rights in 2015 America I don't know.

Out of interest, why do you hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong? Or unnatural, or whatever it is you believe?
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2015, 11:12:46 am »
I wasn't comparing gays with nazis, it was a joke lol
There are no differences in rights between gays and non-gays for decades now. The law used to define marriage as a contractual bond between a man and a woman. You could still marry someone of the opposite sex if you're gay, and you still couldn't marry someone from the same sex if you were straight.

There was no difference in rights. There simply wasn't a law that forseen marriage between two people of the same sex.
Now there is.

I believe in a God, and that he made men and women to bond in straight sexual relations. Since I believe in him, I also believe he makes the rules.
This doesn't mean I must hate teh gays. Just as some people like things I don't like, some people like the same sex better.
You could just label me under the "really don't care about it" category. I simply don't support it based on my belief system (and I've been wrongly called homophobic for that).
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Offline Sharky

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2015, 12:00:18 pm »
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There are no differences in rights between gays and non-gays for decades now. The law used to define marriage as a contractual bond between a man and a woman. You could still marry someone of the opposite sex if you're gay, and you still couldn't marry someone from the same sex if you were straight.

They were not granted the right to marry who they loved... Put yourself in their shoes. Tomorrow you wake up in a parallel universe where you are only allowed to marry a same sex partner. Actually spend a minute to think about that... Think about that first kiss on the alter, feel his strong manly tongue in your mouth, the bristles of his chin against yours... Feel that hot manly breath on the nape of your neck as you consummate your marriage on that hot summers eve on Brighton pier. Think about swirling his salty load around your mouth. Do you spit or swallow?

Sound appealing to you? No? Then now you understand why what you just proposed as equal rights is nonsense.

As for the reasoning behind your stance,  I kind of figured, it's pretty much always the case.
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2015, 12:08:58 pm »
Sound appealing to you? No? Then now you understand why what you just proposed as equal rights is nonsense.

As for the reasoning behind your stance,  I kind of figured, it's pretty much always the case.
I didn't propose anything as equal rights. I was just showing it's NOT a question of rights, but rather a question of law.
No one was forcing gays to marry other sex people, nor forbiding them to love eachother. There was simply an absence of law. (There's some politics behind it as well, I understand. But my point stands)

I don't know if you're implying something by saying "it's much always the case". I'd rather not be discarded as a religious fanatic (which I'm not). I like good people, gay or straight.
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Offline Sharky

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2015, 07:03:07 pm »
I didn't propose anything as equal rights. I was just showing it's NOT a question of rights, but rather a question of law.
No one was forcing gays to marry other sex people, nor forbiding them to love eachother. There was simply an absence of law. (There's some politics behind it as well, I understand. But my point stands)
Semantics... The end result is still the same; some citizens being afforded less than others because of the way they were born.


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I don't know if you're implying something by saying "it's much always the case". I'd rather not be discarded as a religious fanatic (which I'm not). I like good people, gay or straight.

I'm only implying that religion is usually the reason behind the stance you have taken. Not that you're a fanatic.
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2015, 07:22:33 pm »
Semantics... The end result is still the same; some citizens being afforded less than others because of the way they were born.

I'm only implying that religion is usually the reason behind the stance you have taken. Not that you're a fanatic.
No it's not the same. It's politics. They take gays for fools.

Also, it's not religion, it's the person's moral system. There are homophobic atheists.
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Offline Happy Cat

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2015, 08:57:59 pm »

Is this moral opposition, or is it opposition to the federal government enforcing a decision that was previously the state's power? I've read a few articles but it wasn't clear.

Actually that brings me to a question. Is the primary desire for gay marriage the 'status' and official recognition of being married? Or is it more to do with the benefits in terms of legal statuses etc that come with marriage that was previously only available to hetero marriages?

Were the same benefits offered in the USA under a different title like 'De facto' relationship or something to same sex couples?

In general states get to make their own decisions, unless it's a US wide law. Generally US laws are decided by the house, which is full of republicans that hate Obama right now, so nothing gets passed. So it makes it all the more funny that a law made to help poor people afford healthcare and a law to allow people to marry the same sex got passed on the same day. Completley bypassed the house of obama haters!

Naturally, the conservative southern states aren't happy about this, how dare poor people get health care and how dare someone is allowed to marry someone of the same sex! This is against gods wish! Too bad for them, in US law, government and religion has always been considered seperate, its just some of the crazy republicans that try to force christiantiy into US law, which why a ton of Southern states are bothered by this. The Southern US tends to be highly religious (and racist) compared to the north.

But yes, marriage in US law terms is just making a commitment to someone you want to spend your life with, and getting benefits like shared taxes, and the right to see your significant other in the hospital if they are dying, among other things. Has nothing to do with religion, and is about time it was allowed. It's not like churches are being forced to marry same-sex couples. Although I'm sure there is southern government institutions that feel they are in that situation.

I'm sure this guy is probably one of the people freaking out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA

Offline Sharky

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2015, 07:58:07 am »
No it's not the same. It's politics. They take gays for fools.

Also, it's not religion, it's the person's moral system. There are homophobic atheists.

Time to agree to disagree.

Sure there are homophobic atheists but they are usually the off the cuff 'gays are gross' type. Not the type to argue about the sanctity of marriage. An old family 'friend' of mine for example... He is atheist and his general consensus is; I don't care if they get married or what they do, just keep them away from me.

Like a lot of old homophobes he has delusions that his wrinkly skin, bald head and smokers teeth are cat nip to gays and if they got within sniffing distance of his old spice haze they'd be overwhelmed by some primal urge and swarm him like gay bee's on sexy honey.
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Offline pcm92

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2015, 11:52:39 am »
I personally don't think it should be the governments business who can marry who; however, it's also not right for them to close down churches just because they don't believe in it. I think this topic is very controversial. I'm not an administrator, but it would be great if this thread was closed once it goes too far.

Offline Sharky

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2015, 04:58:04 pm »
I personally don't think it should be the governments business who can marry who; however, it's also not right for them to close down churches just because they don't believe in it. I think this topic is very controversial. I'm not an administrator, but it would be great if this thread was closed once it goes too far.

If it goes too far it will be closed for sure. For the time being it's reasonably calm debate and probably going to die down soon.
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Offline MadeManG74

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2015, 05:29:41 pm »
I personally don't think it should be the governments business who can marry who; however, it's also not right for them to close down churches just because they don't believe in it. I think this topic is very controversial. I'm not an administrator, but it would be great if this thread was closed once it goes too far.

They closed down churches?

And if the government is offering benefits and certain conditions to married people, then it's absolutely their decision which individuals are eligible for those.

Offline JRcade19

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2015, 09:12:58 pm »
The one thing that is kind of strange is the way this came about. I understood that this decision was always at a state level, but to be overridden at a national level like it was is a sign that power is being removed from the states. I don't know enough about the US legal system but I imagine that can have repercussions later on.
The Supreme Court of the US is the highest court in the land, its primary purpose is to interpret the constution so as to ensure that the laws of the land are not in opposition to it. Everys state in the Union has sworn to follow the constitution.
Every state has the power to do what it wishes UNLESS:
A) That power is reserved for the federal government(immigration, diplomacy, currency) or
B) The action is unconstitutional

Section 1 of the 14th amendment of the USC
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All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Actually that brings me to a question. Is the primary desire for gay marriage the 'status' and official recognition of being married? Or is it more to do with the benefits in terms of legal statuses etc that come with marriage that was previously only available to hetero marriages?

Were the same benefits offered in the USA under a different title like 'De facto' relationship or something to same sex couples?
A little of both really to the first.

As for the second, Civil unions were NEVER equal in the United states. Even if Civil Unions were permitted, not all states are required to recognize them, unlike marriages. There are over 1400 federal benefits available to married couples that Civil Unions would never have access to. Here are just a few that Civil Unions would never be able to have:

1.  Immigration. Marry an American and your spouse can vouch for your citizenship. Civil Unions canot do so regardless of whether the state recognizes it or not.

2. If your spouse passes away, in a marriage, you can still get social security benefits, and their physical property to care for. In a Civil Union that property is not yours and either returns to the family or Federal Government. If your spouse forgot to write a will, the government will recognize your claims to property in their stead. Civil unions get a "LOLNO"

3. Married couples are entitled to Family medical leave. Civil unions are not. Child or spouse gets sick? Do they need to be taken care of? Too bad, you aren't married so suck it up.

4. If your spouse is injuired, as a married couple, you have the right to visit them immediately as "Next of kin." Under a civil union, the hospital has no such obligation to grant you much visiting rights at all.

5. As a married couple, if your spouse passes away, you have the right to the remains of your loved one, Civil partners do not.

6. If your spouse is killed in military service, you are usually compensated and aided by the military in your time of need. On top of this, you are given the option to bury them in a military graveyard with ceremony. Civil partners however can be ignored and often were and are not given the burial option.

7. You can claim wrongful death benefits if you have a child in a marriage and your spouse passes away. Civil unions do not have the right nor much of an ability to contest wrongful death.

8. Welfare and public assiatance. If you as a married couple are struggling, you can get help from the public at large/government. Civil partners are not eligible for these benefits period.

9. Join adoption. Self explanatory. Gays can be turned away just because they aren't married.

These are just a few of the 1400+ federal benefits that Civil Unions were explicitly denied. This isn't even counting to the fact that the opposition went so far as to create a federal law(Defense of Marriage Act) that literally stated that Only "Married" couples could receive the benefits.(It has been repealed since then)

Offline MadeManG74

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2015, 09:34:15 am »
^thanks for the info, sounds to me like this is something a long time coming. I thought maybe that gay couples could get the same benefits and rights as others but under a different title, surprised that even that wasn't allowed.

Interesting how the law worked as well, I can see why it was enforced at a Federal Level as it does impede on the rights of individuals so would technically be unconstitutional?

Offline pcm92

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2015, 12:07:32 am »
How exactly is it unconstitutional? I mean, it doesn't say in the Constitution "Homosexuals will not be married in every state until 2015." Let's just be clear, I do think it should have been done a much longer time ago. I just don't know what people meant by saying it was "unconstitutional."

Offline pcm92

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Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2015, 05:44:49 pm »