Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1

[Sega Uranus]

Compare one of the best levels in classic sonic to maybe the worst level in Sonic 4?
Lets compare Green Hill zone from Sonic 1 to Splash Hill Zone...

Green hill zone is pretty flat and boring, it's short and has no gimmicks so to speak... The first act of most Sonic games have been pretty dull design wise. Sonic and Knuckles was the exception to the rule.

Green hill zone act one has 1 loop to its name, while Splash hill zone has mutlipe loops, zip lines, vine swings and so on. Making it, in my mind... A more fleshed out level.

The only thing I would change in Splash Hill is the mid level background. Those bushes look a bit crap but the far off background looks good.

Why would you do that? It is like saying if Nintendo makes a new 2D Mario platformer with poor level design and gimmicks that it is okay to compare to the first ever 2D Mario platformer. It is not, they should try to improve. At the time Sonic 1 came out, loops and even bridges that bent were considered gimmicks themselves.

But if you want me to prove Green Hill Zone is much better than Splash Hill Zone, I would be very happy to!

First off, Sonic the Hedgehog only had two zones with loops in it at all. Not that it would matter as they do not add much to the game outside of an extra platform above them. Wacky Workbench from Sonic CD has more loops than any 2D Sonic level, and is one of the worst level in the series. The two loops in Green Hill Zone are nice in that to get on top of one you need to get past it first, then go backwards and roll, then jump off of the wall to reach the platform above it, there is no other way to. This alone requires more skill and thinking than anything I have seen in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, period.

Next, go back and play the Zone again. I will give you that they are short, but at the time this was the most expansive level in a platformer to date, only being rivaled by Super Mario Brothers 3. You could go in all different directions, which would lead to different items and paths. You could go through high-speed tubes, there was a spinning pointy log bridge, there were cliff edges that would break. All of this is not really impressive now, but my point is that a big game made in 2010 should be at least slightly better than a big game made in 1991, especially when there are much more impressive design concept added into the series within those 19 years.

I could go on for hours about what is wrong with the art design in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, but I will not. I just want to say that even stuff like Sonic Advance, Sonic Triple Trouble and even Sonic 3D Blast has better level art design and gimmicks than Sonic the Hedgehog 4 does, and I do not think this is acceptable at all.

[Sega Stylista]

Im starting to thinks you are a troll... or just a bit mad.

I'm not a troll. And I'm anticipating Sonic 4 and am enthusiastic about it.

You're just starting to think I'm a bit mad?  Interesting.  

Im starting to thinks you are a troll... or just a bit mad.

You're only starting to realise that now?

lmao. I honestly replied to him before I read this.

Good one, Goro Majima-man

Seriously, I'm not one of these "kaarazzy dudes". I'm just not normal.

I hate to say it, but Sega Stylista is right here, though DIMPS did not do the art. The art in Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is pooey and does not have much thought gone into it.

You are my man. You are a hardcore sega stylista.

Compare Mushroom Hill Zone (Sonic & Knuckles) with Splash Hill Zone (Sonic the Hedgehog 4), not only does Mushroom Hill Zone look significantly better, but it has different styles and art added in between the level as you progress, with cool graphical extras like when you hit the ground you could kick up dandelions. It has extremely creative gimmicks like the pumps, poles you could spin around on, mushrooms to bounce on, to balance on, to glide with, stuff like that. Can you think of any other games that have ideas like this? Compare that to what? Metal speed boosters that clash with the level art that are poorly drawn? Swinging vines that happen to be the only vines in the level at all? Not just that, but it is the little things, like none of the levels having badniks specific to their level, I mean those floating spike enemies are in ever level, this kind of stuff would never have happened with a good set of designers.

There is nothing wrong with noting all this. It's accurate and it's not "hating on the game".  Don't forget to mention that Dimps uses color globs rather than gradients and shading.

I could go on for hours about what is wrong with the art design in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, but I will not. I just want to say that even stuff like Sonic Advance, Sonic Triple Trouble and even Sonic 3D Blast has better level art design and gimmicks than Sonic the Hedgehog 4 does, and I do not think this is acceptable at all.

Wow, arise, hardcore sega stylista man.

There is nothing wrong with a critical appreciation of a game, it's not hating. It's enthusiasm.

[Sharky]

Why would you do that?

Because theres nothing more 'classic sonic' then green hill zone.

This alone requires more skill and thinking than anything I have seen in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, period.

But you haven't even played Sonic 4... At best you have seen playthoughs of people that are not that good at the game. Talk about jumping the gun.

Next, go back and play the Zone again. I will give you that they are short, but at the time this was the most expansive level in a platformer to date, only being rivaled by Super Mario Brothers 3. You could go in all different directions, which would lead to different items and paths. You could go through high-speed tubes, there was a spinning pointy log bridge, there were cliff edges that would break. All of this is not really impressive now, but my point is that a big game made in 2010 should be at least slightly better than a big game made in 1991, especially when there are much more impressive design concept added into the series within those 19 years.

Your right none of that is super impressive and a game in 2010 should be better... But then again Splash hill DOES look better to me.

If people ask for a Sonic game to go back to basics and be like the classics dont complain when it does.

Could have been worse... look at Megaman 9...

[Sega Uranus]

Why would you do that?

Because theres nothing more 'classic sonic' then green hill zone.

My point is that there have been tons of improvements to design of games in general since this has been released. SEGA should want to improve, not release something that is just 'good enough'. This is the kind of design mentality we got with stuff like Sonic Blast on Game Gear, which is what Sonic the Hedgehog 4 reminds me of the most sadly.

This alone requires more skill and thinking than anything I have seen in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, period.

But you haven't even played Sonic 4... At best you have seen playthoughs of people that are not that good at the game. Talk about jumping the gun.

Read what I said again. I specifically pointed out that it requires more skill from anything I have seen. I do not think this is jumping the gun at all.

If people ask for a Sonic game to go back to basics and be like the classics dont complain when it does.

Could have been worse... look at Megaman 9...

So with Mega Man 9 you are allowed to complain because it is not what you want even though it is back to basics and is designed like the classics?

Like I said, this is just the quality of something like Sonic Blast on Game Gear. I like that game, sure, but it is nowhere near the quality of what Sonic the Hedgehog 4 SHOULD be.

I think you are missing my point entirely. I am not upset because there is a 'classic style' Sonic game coming out. I am upset because SEGA will be releasing a game that has a 'good enough' mentality as a sequel to what is easily their biggest and most important game trilogy of all time.

[Sharky]

What I'm saying is at least Sonic 4 LOOKs up to date...
I think a 'good enough' mentality would have been simply going backinto the Sonic 1 or 2 engine and changing some assets so it's similar to the level creator on Play SEGA and calling it Sonic 4.

For the life of me all I ever see you do is complain about shit Sanus, I think you are overlooking all of the good points of Sonic 4 and complaining about some small trivial rubbish that doesnt suit YOUR exact needs.

[Barry the Nomad]

Agreed. I don't get where this "good enough" nonsense is coming from. I've been told again and again here that I'm guilty of saying Sonic 4 is " good enough" when I really should be expecting something "above and beyond" what it is. What boggles my mind is how some folks don't get that perhaps what I'm seeing IS above and beyond what I was initially expecting.

Perhaps I never expected a Sonic 4 to begin with, and "good enough" would have been a Mega Man 9 style game that looks like it was ripped from the Genesis days. However, I've always viewed the Sonic series to be something that evolved with the technology at hand, not some quirky title that relied on bit graphics to define it's visual style.

edit: page 69, lol

[Sega Uranus]

I like how my arguments are thrown out of the window and I am just left with being called a complainer. I thought the whole point of discussing anything was to bring up the faults when we are on forums?

All I ever see you guys talk about is how awesome it is that we have not gotten a good Sonic game like this in years. My whole overall complaint is that Sonic the Hedgehog 4 SHOULD be a bigger game than it is. I bet you would be complaining your ass off if Shenmue III turned out to be a 'good enough' release directed by a guy who has constantly proven he does not know what the franchise is about and wants to keep adding stuff that harms the general gameplay or breaks the formula.

You might want to argue that I would just not be happy with anything. That is not true, but from what I can see here, it does not even begin to compare with Sonic 1 2 or 3. If this was just another spinoff game, I would have no issues, but this is SONIC THE FUCKING HEDGEHOG 4, it should be one of if not the absolute biggest project by SEGA right now as it is a direct sequel to what is literally their biggest game trilogy of all time. Look at something like Marvel vs Capcom 3, what makes that game so special for it to get its own release but not Sonic? Hell, I would not be surprised if Sonic and the Black Knight had a bigger budget than this, and that is just fucking wrong.

Take a look at Angel Island Zone from Sonic Advance 1

[youtube:1ap932au]CYrpKEcOIZk[/youtube:1ap932au]

Okay, the level design and gimmicks are not some of the best, and the art is not extraordinary nor is the general mapping all that great, but I think this looks to be a much better blending of the old and new styles of Sonic. Look! That level specifically has tons of gimmicks found throughout the old games, that is a good example of showing respect to the old games while still keeping it all fresh. Compare it to the gimmicks in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, like I even said previously, all of the levels share the spikey floating enemy, let alone that none of the badniks in that game are not even original designs.

Seriously, I cannot believe you guys are okay with how this has turned out.

[Sharky]

Games not even out yet and its been delayed.

Those animations are really poor, looks like hes running in glucose.

I will agree that there is a good level of 'gimmicks' but other then that everything looks poorer then what ive seen in Sonic 4.

Tell me, is this level from Sonic Advance act 1?

[Barry the Nomad]

I cannot believe you guys are okay with how this has turned out.

This is the whole problem with our debate here.

You give your opinion and your reasons, and love them or hate them we accept that it's your opinion. We type out why we disagree (note: we understand why you hate it but disagree) but then you always come back to the line quoted above. I could type up a ten page essay explaining why I like the direction of Sonic 4 and you'll still say "I cannot believe you guys are okay with how this has turned out."

Point is, we are (for the most part) okay with it!

[Sega Uranus]

Games not even out yet and its been delayed.

Those animations are really poor, looks like hes running in glucose.

I will agree that there is a good level of 'gimmicks' but other then that everything looks poorer then what ive seen in Sonic 4.

Tell me, is this level from Sonic Advance act 1?

But this is not Sonic the Hedgehog 4, that is my point. This is why it is okay. What does it matter what act it is? The first levels in newer Sonic games have always been the best, and Sonic Advance is no different. I dunno man, go play the game, that is actually one of the worst playing levels overall.

I cannot believe you guys are okay with how this has turned out.

This is the whole problem with our debate here.

You give your opinion and your reasons, and love them or hate them we accept that it's your opinion. We type out why we disagree (note: we understand why you hate it but disagree) but then you always come back to the line quoted above. I could type up a ten page essay explaining why I like the direction of Sonic 4 and you'll still say "I cannot believe you guys are okay with how this has turned out."

Point is, we are (for the most part) okay with it!

Not really. Sharky freaks out about if I say anything negative or unsupporting of the game, saying I am whining or should be more supportive of a developer who has fucked us over countless times or am nitpicking (When it really obviously is not) and you constantly use some snide remarks that try to make a joke out of everything.

Every time I have said something nice about the game, it has been ignored, if I say something bad or give constructive criticism I am hung out to dry. I think this is all just coming down to you guys not giving a shit how the game turns out as long as Sonic is in it.

[Sharky]

I haven't freaked out once... Not to mention I havent baught a Sonic game since Sonic Adventure 2 so I'm not sure were you get that idea from. Sonic was never my favourite aspect of Sega although I've wanted it to improve for years.

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is all kinds of steps in the right direction... There delaying it to work on it... What more do you want.

Are you REALLY crying about the name? I mean really... What next? Eye colour?

[Barry the Nomad]

Yo playaz!

I was rushing out of work last comment I typed, but I meant to add: no bad blood over others opinions on Sonic 4, I was just pointing out the circuitous nature of our discussions and how we probably won't have firm opinions until the game releases.

As for making a joke out of everything, when it all comes down to it we're talking about video games. Hardly something to get too worked up over. I just hate to see things dip into deathly serious.

[MadeManG74]

Sharky thinks the old Sonic games were just blatant rip-offs of Mario anyway. I think the line was 'Sonic is just a blue Mario'.


So, yeah.

I'm still thinking I won't be getting Sonic 4, and the homing attack is a big reason for that. It's a big alarm bell that they've just missed the feel of the original games completely for me.

I also think the production values do scream out of 'Good Enough' as Sanus said. And that's my opinion on the matter.

I would appreciate it if you didn't call us "Mad Trolls" for not liking this game either Barry, that's really not very nice.
EDIT: JUst saw barry's post above mine. No hard feelings!  

[Barry the Nomad]

I also went on to hint at liking period porn, so please take that post with a grain of salt.

For the record: I don't like period porn.

[Sharky]

Sharky thinks the old Sonic games were just blatant rip-offs of Mario anyway. I think the line was 'Sonic is just a blue Mario'.

He's faster too... But at the end of the day Sega big wigs sat around a table at Sega HQ said 'Hey we got all these awesome arcade games but we don't have a mario and polls say thats what kids want'...

And the rest is history... Sonic does a lot of the things Mario does, but faster and I think that was the initial idea.

So, yeah.

Then again according to Sanus I'm some kind of fanboy that'll just buy anything Sonic related... Make up your mind boys... Have a little chat about it, come back... Tell me what I am then.