Not a bad read; Sexism in Videogames

[Sharky]

Strippers are women too are they not objectifying themselves? Are they necessarily unhappy?

There is nothing wrong with strippers, if they want to be a stripper let them. It is, after all their own body and it's only a body...

I'd rather live in a world where woman can choose to be strippers if she wants to be then a world where she is forced into arranged marriage with men they may not necessarily want to be with and then be expected to do the housework, have kids, obey her husband and wear a head scarf in public.

Tell me, which one is more 'sexist'?

[cube_b3]

The former. The latter is oppressive .

Why do you assume me to be an oppressive person just because I value dignity. I have nothing against anyone strippers can be strippers it's their choice but don't call them entrepreneur's call them strippers.

Bayonetta is sexist, are you and your social circle fine with it.
Given the likely possiblity the game is deeper than objectification, atleast agree with me on this:
The marketing was all about objectification from the 1st Teaser to the one handed masterbation compatible control scheme.

[Sharky]

This is where your argument falls flat...

The latter is both, actually. The former is not sexist... Men can be strippers, men can be models, men can be prostitutes and men can even be suggestive and use their sexuality to their advantage if they so choose. JUST like woman can. It seems quite equal...

But this 'you are mine to treat how I wish' attitude that some countries adopt towards woman in general, treating woman as things to be commanded IS sexist.

Sexism by definition is saying
'you are not my equal because of your gender.'

Now, if a black comedian goes on stage and tells jokes about 'being black' and uses his experience as a black guy to his advantage. He make some jokes about being black, that isn’t racist... Look at Chris Rock... He does a great job of it. Both Black and White people can find that funny.

It is racist to oppress black people as a race, treat them as lesser humans...

Well it's exactly the same with woman, if a woman WANTS to be a stripper and use her sexuality, then go for it! That isn’t sexist that’s her choice and her body. (Likewise a man can do this too!)

What IS sexist is telling her NO; actually you can't do that... go cover your face with a tea towel and cook my din dins, you are mine!

Given the likely possiblity the game is deeper than objectification, atleast agree with me on this:
The marketing was all about objectification from the 1st Teaser to the one handed masterbation compatible control scheme.

Hey, if you masterbate every time you've got a hand free that's fine with me... But don't paint everyone with your brush!

Kamiya said the easy mode is so that everyone, no matter there skill level can enjoy Bayonetta... Never said anything about masterbation...

Vanquish has a similar easy mode... Should I expect that is for fapping too?

[CrazyT]

It's not about how you look at the woman perse. It's about how you aproach her. Here in holland everything has become really mixed. Muslims are everywhere so the chances of getting in touch with these kinds of girls/women is big around here. I just noticed myself when speaking with these kind of girls brings no other intentions with it.

You're giving a good example there about your girlfriend. Hijab doesn't only describe the scarf, but also the figure/curves. It's not like when a woman wairs a scarf she's automatically less sexualy attractive when she still wears tight clothes. I do gotta say that the latter seems to have a bigger effect on me. Hijab is covering both curves and hair i've learned. The best thing of all, or so a friend has told me, when you do find a certain girl attractive that's dressed that way, it's harder to think of perverted things. Maybe i'm just mesed up  :lol:  but I am guilty of doing that myself sometimes. The attractness comes just from the face and character.

It just sorta makes sense to me, while i'm not a mulsim myself. But I like looking at women in that manner instead of the whole "let's see if you can get that girl" attitude among friends, which is how men are usually, i'm sure your familar with that kind of attitude towards women. I respect their perspective on how their religion encourages a woman to be seen as more than just an object of lust and how the women aknowledge the "weakness" of men.

Anyway to keep this ontopic.  Bayonetta, if I take away that she's made by a female and judge her just by the character. I don't think it's sexist at all. She's not being degraded to be acting that way, she's doing it herself, full with confidence and style. There's nothing sexist about her character.

[Barry the Nomad]

Yeah, where is this masturbation thing coming from? I don't recall adverts saying "Play with one hand " All that nonsense came from the juvenile gaming press who always slip in a dirty joke when they can.

IN FACT the ONE time that I found Platinum officially showing off the one handed mode is here:

http://kotaku.com/#!5344857/see-bayonet ... h-one-hand

Oh my, look at that, Bayo's female designer is playing the game one handed. No masturbation jokes, no Japanese men winking at the camera miming masturbation. Just a woman playing a game with one hand, to show off how easy the auto mode is.

Quotes from Kamiya on auto mode, again, no mention of masturbation aside from the article writer himself making a joke: http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2009/0 ... c-mode.htm

Aaaaand once again, fatfuck the fuck aka Jim Sterling gets very explicit about auto mode, but the video and Kamiya quotes only focus on the simplicity of the mode, no mention of jerking off: http://www.destructoid.com/bayonetta-s- ... 5914.phtml

Journalists making juvenile jokes is not the same as PG and SEGA marketing the game.

[George]

Sexism = when a woman is treated less than a man.

Sexism does not mean a woman is sexy in a movie or game. Woman love being sexy, so do men. Why do you think they wear fucking make up, high heels and shave their legs? If they didn't give a shit, they look like those whiny hippies that call everything sexist.

I don't see how giving Bayonetta, a female, a lead game where she kicks ass is sexist.

Now, if the lead character was Jack and Bayonetta was stupid and relied on Jack's strong muscles to do anything... yeah... thats sexist.

[MadeManG74]

I agree, Bayonetta is Sexy.

Wait, what?

[Sharky]

It's not about how you look at the woman perse. It's about how you aproach her. Here in holland everything has become really mixed. Muslims are everywhere so the chances of getting in touch with these kinds of girls/women is big around here. I just noticed myself when speaking with these kind of girls brings no other intentions with it.

You're giving a good example there about your girlfriend. Hijab doesn't only describe the scarf, but also the figure/curves. It's not like when a woman wairs a scarf she's automatically less sexualy attractive when she still wears tight clothes. I do gotta say that the latter seems to have a bigger effect on me. Hijab is covering both curves and hair i've learned. The best thing of all, or so a friend has told me, when you do find a certain girl attractive that's dressed that way, it's harder to think of perverted things. Maybe i'm just mesed up  :lol:  but I am guilty of doing that myself sometimes. The attractness comes just from the face and character.

It just sorta makes sense to me, while i'm not a mulsim myself. But I like looking at women in that manner instead of the whole "let's see if you can get that girl" attitude among friends, which is how men are usually, i'm sure your familar with that kind of attitude towards women. I respect their perspective on how their religion encourages a woman to be seen as more than just an object of lust and how the women aknowledge the "weakness" of men.

There is a good chance that being covered by Hijab or Berqua will stop men looking at woman in a sexual way... Then again so would incasing her in a block of granite. Both seem like extreme measures to stop such a harmless thing...

Frankly when I talk to woman dressed 'normally' for my society I have no 'wondering thoughts' I can function quite normally.

However I doubt I am the only guy that, when talking to a woman dressed from head to toe in a berqua I'm putting quite a lot of thought into 'I wonder what she looks like under this'... In fact I bet it is FAR more distracting... Not even in a sexual way I'm just wondering at this point, what she looks like. If you hide something, people WANT to see it... That is human nature.

But this isn't really the point I was making... I'm not out to stop people wearing these things, even if I don't agree with the concept.

Where you come from and where I come from (Europe) there is nothing in society to say HEY YOU HAVE TO WEAR THAT HEAD SCARF!
So yeah I guess it could seem like an alright idea, woman have the choice to wear it or not. (Give or take a strict parent.) They are free to wear it if they choose. Shit, if I want to wear one I will and no one will stop me... I might get some funny looks but nothing else.

In some of these countries where this originates there ISN'T a choice, society chooses, the man chooses... The woman are expected to be a certain way and if they do not act this way, wear that, perform this duty they are treated poorly. THAT is where it becomes sexist.

You know what, Woman LIKE to be attractive, they LIKE to be looked at and they LIKE to be sexy... Even these Muslim woman. Even those Muslim girls that can only show their eyes in public because society has forced it upon them LOOK at their eyes... They have pimped those eyes to the max, mascara, make up, all sorts to get some kind of attraction going.

It's HUMAN nature to be attracted to the opposite sex and it's human nature to want to attract the opposite sex, hell it's the nature of all creatures... If a 18 year old Muslim girl wants to show the world she’s a hot piece of arse I fully support it and I don't think it should be the right of any repressed douche bag bloke to stop her.

[cube_b3]

We've strayed seriously off topic but I like the decision going on. Just move it to Off Topic: Everything else cause we are off gaming now.

Anyway I don't get the Burkah; it is a security risk i'm not sure but you can't do that in the United States and several places in Pakistan even it is a security thread cause terrorist (MEN) fucking roam around in those clothes.

Hijab on the other hand I respect, burkah's I maintain a distance.

Funny story given that we'll be graduating soon are teacher informed us that the 2 girls wearing Burkah in our class can not practice psychology with the burkah the institute doesn't allow it. You need to connect with your patients regardless of gender build a rapport with them and with a burkah your alienating 50% of the market.

[CrazyT]

@sharky

Ah i am totally against burqa's, burqa's are stupid so let's not bring that into the discussion. I agree with your point of view. It's just that I respect their perspective given from their source as well. I mean there will always be idiots who opress women, judge the people, not the source. Their religion does not say, opress the women or that the women has less rights. Their religion say that men and women are different and have their own responsibilities, and can affect each other in ways, which makes sense when I look at how women can easily controll men if they just shake their ass. From their pov Women are actually very valuable, which is why they care so much about their value.

Yeah I agree too that a woman can do whatever she likes, wherever she comes from, whatever her religion is. I personally just like to respect women in general, I like it when a woman chooses to be seen as more than just attractive peace of meat. In that particular religion, the islam, it's priority. If men weren't such jerks over there, overall it would be a great foundation to women. Women would have rights and not be controlled by mens lust and generally used for marketing. Especially in the US there are lots of girls that grow up, watch those music video's on tv and get brainwashed that that's all their good for.

Edit: Yeah this is heading totally offtopic lol

[Barry the Nomad]

I wouldn't say it's offtopic. In talking about worldly matters you are in turn discussing how you all perceive and interpret sexism, which in turn applies to the posted article.

As long as there is no flaming or insulting, I'll allow it.

[Sharky]

Yeah I agree too that a woman can do whatever she likes, wherever she comes from, whatever her religion is. I personally just like to respect women in general, I like it when a woman chooses to be seen as more than just attractive peace of meat. In that particular religion, the islam, it's priority. If men weren't such jerks over there, overall it would be a great foundation to women. Women would have rights and not be controlled by mens lust and generally used for marketing. Especially in the US there are lots of girls that grow up, watch those music video's on tv and get brainwashed that that's all their good for.

It is very possible for a woman to be both attractive and smart.

I also find this 'what they see on tv is brain washing' to be quite... urh, over played.

I personally have never met a girl, of the hundreds of girls I know that aspires to even be a model let alone shake their stuff on MTV or what ever... The real world is more down to earth then people make out. You can walk into a shop in the UK pick up a tabloid paper flick to page 3, see naked girls, any news agent has porn magazines on the top shelf... It isn't hard to see nude girls, yet I don't know a single girl that I would say has been brainwashed to aspire to that. That mentality is way overplayed. If a girl DOES aspire to that... Why should we call it brain washing, maybe that’s WHAT she wants to do. After all I don't think it is a crime to show off what you've got.

The Hijab, as far as I am aware is kind of like a vale that goes over the hair and onto the shoulders, personally I'm totally fine with that, in fact it can actually be attractive! BUT... It really doesn't do much to hide any features... apart from their hair and it is still 'sexist' in any society where it is forced on woman.

Frankly I think we should all just cast off our clothes and rutt like the animals we are.

[Centrale]

Strippers are women too are they not objectifying themselves? Are they necessarily unhappy?

Cube, I've had several friends who have worked as strippers and it was not because it was their favorite choice of a job.  It's a difficult, exploitative and sometimes dangerous job, with a very few exceptions in areas where adult industry workers have been able to organize unions and subsequently improve working conditions.  They took the job because it paid much better than the other jobs immediately available to them.  Unfortunately I think there is a big illusion that people working in the sex industry are quite happy about it, which is not the case.  They certainly aren't doing it because they just have some simple enjoyment of being looked at all day in a sexual way.  I think in the majority of instances it has more to do with desperation.  In many cases, through a variety of circumstances, they have no family support and few supportive friends in their community, might have children of their own to provide for, and no credit to apply for loans for example, to get into college and perhaps find better career paths.  And even if they are able to get to that point, there is still the ongoing issue of women consistently being paid less for the same work than men are.  As a result there are a few imperfect attempts to equalize things, such as affirmative action, which gives some people the impression that the problem is solved.  That gets into more of the institutionalized aspect of sexism.

[Sharky]

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[Centrale]

First of all, if you think that Comics/Graphic Novels are 'doomed' in terms of maturity, then I couldn't disagree more. Comics and graphic novels are only moving on up in terms of recognition as a legitimate medium, and I've attended seminars for Graphic Novels as literature and even written a report/seminar on that topic for a 'Theory and Writing' course at uni. Secondly, it's hardly fair to group all superhero books into being 'dumb'. Watchmen alone smashes any notion that superheroes need be dumb and childish.

As for games, they aren't as emotional and rich in story as books/films, but by the same token books and films never have to worry about anything but story, whereas games have to worry about gameplay as an equally important aspect of their design.

I agree that there are some comics/graphic novels that are great works of literature.  However it took the better part of a century for the art form to evolve to that point, and there is still relatively little business support for finely crafted literary comics.  "Citizen Kane" is regarded by many as a cinematic achievement which signaled that the art form of film had achieved greatness... within less than half a century from its inception.   So already we see video games falling behind that pace.  Watchmen might be an exception to the rule of the utter stupidity of superhero comics, but in the general public's mind in the U.S. (I know it's quite different in Japan and Europe), comics are synonymous with superheros.  I give no quarter to superhero comics as a genre, as they have damn near ruined the respectability of an entire art form in North America.  It turns my stomach that Sega got involved with Marvel... they clearly didn't bother trying to polish those turds as they were guaranteed to bring in some income no matter what.  Still it'd be better for Sega's reputation if they had never been associated.

Still in all, I think the concept of "greatness" is very subjective.  I personally enjoy the hell out of the simple pursuit of high scores.  I was just thinking several years ago that video games might become more like great cinema, in terms of quality of content and not just graphical appearance.  Now I don't really think things are moving in that direction, but games can still be great equivalents of blockbuster action movies and such.