Not a bad read; Sexism in Videogames

[cube_b3]

http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/sexisminvideogames.html

[Sharky]

Nope that was a waste of my time and I suspect you only posted it because of the 1 line it had about Bayonetta being sexually objectifying.

I actually hate this care bear bullshit, Woman are objectified, men are objectified. Sex sells who gives a shit.

OMG LOOK HOW SUGGESTIVE THIS IS?!


In this day and age both sexes are objectified to some degree and only repressed backwards douchebags make a big fuss about it.

My girlfriend LOVES Bayonetta and LOVES Ulala both are strong female characters and yes they move and wear suggestive clothes.

Get over it.

If  a game doesn't have suggestive thremes some unruly flag goat like fuzzy moo chicken will just draw it and fap over it.

[Centrale]

LOL, Sharky, I've gathered that your position on sexism in games, and perhaps on sexism in general, is "SHUT UP JUST SHUT UP!!!"

It is an interesting read.  I think video games, like comics before them (another generally disrespected and maligned art form), are limited by the rather limited range of backgrounds and experiences of their creators.  If there were to be a more diverse range of creators, the overall quality of games would go up as there would be a greater number of games in which the characters are designed by people of the same gender, race, class, cultural background and so forth.  

One thing that I thought Disney was doing right in the late 90s before they completely screwed up and laid off their traditional animation staff was they were trying to have the lead animators for each character be of a similar background to the characters they were animating.  This isn't always possible but I think there's something to it, as there are particular nuances to each identity that not everyone is fully aware of in others.  

Now, the interesting question is, why is the spectrum of creators so limited?  It comes back in part to issues of sexism and class privilege.

All in all, although I once had higher hopes for the medium of video games, I think I've seen enough by now to expect that story-wise and in terms of subtly nuanced representations of people, the medium of video games will never reach the heights of prose novels and films.  There will be brilliant exceptions to the rule along the way, but video games are pretty much doomed by the prevalence of immaturity among the vast majority of their creators.  Comics have never recovered from the dominant stupidity of superheroes in spite of the efforts of indie publishers like Fantagraphics, and I think we've seen enough water under the bridge to predict that video games are similarly doomed.

[Sharky]

It isn't that I don't agree that some levels of sexism are a bit silly and crude and, well... Sexist.

But I'm really, really sick of ultra sensitive types making a big sink over things like Bayonetta... Bayonetta the character was designed by a female, most females I've come across actually LOVE the character as well as Ulala.

The character comes across as unobtainable, strong and 'free' she’s not a damsel in distress treated like a lesser being.  

I think it is time it dawned on some people that actually woman LIKE to be 'sexy' and in fact, so do men in this day and age.

If you want to see a Sexist game, try 'Cooking Mama' yep... That's far more sexist then anything in Bayonetta.

Try going to the country Cube comes from and see how many think woman are not equal to men, forced marriage and violence is common place. Where most of them have to cover their face under a berka.

[youtube:2tzv0vtb]JoBgUB8e4vg[/youtube:2tzv0vtb]

[Centrale]

I think you're right about Cooking Mama.

I agree that the character Bayonetta is more like appropriating the 'sexy' behavior and it is just one of the many other strengths she has such as intelligence, wit and skillful fighting.  Bayonetta the game arguably satirizes that type of objectification, as Bayonetta the character pushes it to such an extreme... even the walk animation is a big exaggeration of a 'sexy' walk.  But it's also understandable that at first glance many people think that Bayonetta is possibly quite superficial.  But what can you do... so many people are all too willing to form strong opinions about things they never bother to experience firsthand.  The thing about satire is that the audience has to have a pre-established understanding of the subject to understand that it is satire; ignorant people will think it's just completely on the level.  I understand Stephen Colbert has a lot of conservative fans, when his whole act is completely making fun of them.  But because he plays it deadpan, many never get the satirical element of it.

[Sharky]

I agree, lot's of people will form strong opinions about things before they give it a go...

[Pao]

Try going to the country Cube comes from and see how many think woman are not equal to men, forced marriage and violence is common place. Where most of them have to cover their face under a berka.
[youtube:2s9ywrnz]JoBgUB8e4vg[/youtube:2s9ywrnz]

What a bunch of bullshit propaganda, just because some group of psychos burn their women's faces with acid doesn't speak of the majority in Pakistan.

Forced Marriage and Violence exist even in the west and other parts of the world, and most Pakistani women wear Hijab not Burqa.
Granted I won't claim I know about Pakistan more than Cube, but a large number of Pakistanis live in Saudi Arabia and I think I have a pretty good idea about them.

EDIT: Why is this in the Sega section? Are we discussing Bayonetta's sexism again? Sharky pretty much hit the nail on the head, most of the Bayonetta fans I've seen are women, and her creator is also a female, why complain about it when women themselves doesn't find it offending?

[CrazyT]

I don't know. My take is that women are more sexual by nature while man are more "manly" by nature. There's nothing wrong when a woman wants to be different, be seen as more than a piece of hotness. I think even if men didn't exist at all, women would still be enjoying to wear less clothes as possible, dance in a sensual way(belly dancing etc), pyjama parties.

I do find it an interesting subject however. Some women seem to think that it's men who control everything, and they do have a point to a certain extent but I still think it's BS. But whatever, giving it too much thought is silly. It's not like we man go apeshit when women generalize about men. They do it all the time actually :p

[Sharky]

What a bunch of bullshit propaganda, just because some group of psychos burn their women's faces with acid doesn't speak of the majority in Pakistan.

I’m not trying to say everyone in Pakistan is walking around with a vile of chemicals incase their wife steps out of line. That was the first random video I found on youtube. and not really the point I was trying to make. Forget the video it was a poor choice on my part.

What I'm trying to get across is that the idea that 'a womans job is in the kitchen' and woman should 'obey their husband' and 'wear a headscarf' (of any form) these things which ARE a part of some cultures, including that of Pakistan are FAR more 'sexist' than, say... Bayonetta using her sexuality.

[cube_b3]

EDIT: Why is this in the Sega section? Are we discussing Bayonetta's sexism again? Sharky pretty much hit the nail on the head, most of the Bayonetta fans I've seen are women, and her creator is also a female, why complain about it when women themselves doesn't find it offending?

A mistake by yours truly.

I don't think he knows the difference between Hijab and Burkah.
 

Try going to the country Cube comes from and see how many think woman are not equal to men, forced marriage and violence is common place. Where most of them have to cover their face under a berka.

[youtube:3ag2p6qq]JoBgUB8e4vg[/youtube:3ag2p6qq]

Thank you for comparing me to a psychotic minority.
My sister is one of the most prominent upcoming artists in our country.
My mother is a well respected entrepreneur.
As far as I know the only country where Hijab is in a women's dress code is Saudia Arabia.

Also in this video I couldn't see a single lady in a burkah. We broadcast these cases to bring awareness with in our own country so that the right human rights activists can go forth and bring a change.

[CrazyT]

Hijab isn't really a bad thing in my opinion. I heard lots of stories from muslim friends and I think it makes sense. In general, it's in a mans nature to get turned on by women. Some less/more than others, but generally speaking that still stands. Women are respected alot more when their sexual attractive figures/hair are not shown. I've been noticing this myself, especially at work. I don't really care tbh. They make the choice themselves for that particular reason, to be respected and not be bothered by guys that usually are only out for one thing.

Ages ago women have been opressed here as well. I think the oppresion thing has more to do with culture rather than religion. Also with corruption and everything in those places prevents it from normal people to speak up. The whole protest thing happening now gives me a positive feeling about the arab worlds future. Culture changes.

Well, anyway just felt like sharing my views on this.

[MadeManG74]

All in all, although I once had higher hopes for the medium of video games, I think I've seen enough by now to expect that story-wise and in terms of subtly nuanced representations of people, the medium of video games will never reach the heights of prose novels and films.  There will be brilliant exceptions to the rule along the way, but video games are pretty much doomed by the prevalence of immaturity among the vast majority of their creators.  Comics have never recovered from the dominant stupidity of superheroes in spite of the efforts of indie publishers like Fantagraphics, and I think we've seen enough water under the bridge to predict that video games are similarly doomed.

First of all, if you think that Comics/Graphic Novels are 'doomed' in terms of maturity, then I couldn't disagree more. Comics and graphic novels are only moving on up in terms of recognition as a legitimate medium, and I've attended seminars for Graphic Novels as literature and even written a report/seminar on that topic for a 'Theory and Writing' course at uni. Secondly, it's hardly fair to group all superhero books into being 'dumb'. Watchmen alone smashes any notion that superheroes need be dumb and childish.

As for games, they aren't as emotional and rich in story as books/films, but by the same token books and films never have to worry about anything but story, whereas games have to worry about gameplay as an equally important aspect of their design.

[Sharky]

@ Crazy Tails,

If a woman chooses to she can dress in a way that is entirely suitable and not at all provocative  with out wearing a hijab and burqa to obscure themselves.

In the society I live in woman can generally wear what ever they like, my girlfriend doesn't like wearing revealing clothes at all and she doesn't need a headscarf to achive this...

You make it sound as if as soon as a man see's an attractive face, or, god forbid... nice hair... they turn into a rabid, rapist. Men find woman attractive, woman find men attractive and that's life... It's going to happen, why deny it!? But at no point have I found myself unable to function if I find someone attractive and I don't turn into a lustful rapist either.

After watching a documentary recently where a British born Muslim goes back to Yemen, (I think it was Yemen) he asks lots of woman how they feel about having to be covered in public, everything but their eyes and most of the younger ones replied that they didn't want it at first but got used to it and understand the reason for it in their culture.

Maybe it DOES help them to be taken more seriously (I personally have my doubts but hey, maybe...) But surely it should be there own choice? Not made for them by society and treated poorly if they don't wear one? If they had the choice I doubt many of them would be wearing it.

If suddenly girls started finding you attractive would you want society to force you to wear a cloth over your face... =D

Not to mention headscarf or not it seems in some of these countries, woman are still given the role of 'house keeper' and 'obedient wife' so I'm not really getting where this whole 'hijab and burqa means more respect' stuff comes from.

[Aki-at]

Ages ago women have been opressed here as well. I think the oppresion thing has more to do with culture rather than religion. Also with corruption and everything in those places prevents it from normal people to speak up. The whole protest thing happening now gives me a positive feeling about the arab worlds future. Culture changes.

The hilarious thing is we can thank the American and European powers for placing tyrants and murderous psychopaths as the head of the government/ruling monarch simply because we didn't want to pay too much for oil.

It's as much as political problem as cultural, don't want those pesky people to see the rights they can have, or they start to oppose the ones in control and everything goes tumbling down.

Anyway Bayonetta is designed by a woman, so is it sexist? If a woman designed her and is happy with the design, then it surely can't be considered sexist?

[cube_b3]

Strippers are women too are they not objectifying themselves? Are they necessarily unhappy?