How Dreamcast Traumatised Gaming

[ROJM]

What historical facts are these ?. The DC didn't change gaming for the masses at all, The sad reality is there were all hopelessly caught up in MGS 2 hype and PS2 to give the Dreamcast much of a chance.

And pointing out that SEGA were for me better on the Saturn isn't trolling at all, its how I feel, there's quite a few people that like Saturn, not to be different , but because they tend to be shooter fans , or 2D Fighter fans, and the Saturn was mighty in those regards.

One thing everyone knows that the DC leagcy on gaming really happened after its brief apperence on the scene, another fact is that many games essentially copied titles that first made their apperence on the DC including your crappy heavy rain.
And yes stop trolling. This topic isn't about what system you perfer its about one specific system and how it affected gaming. We all know and are tired about how you love the bloody saturn. Wanna make a topic on it be my guest but don't bring it here when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[Team Andromeda]

another fact is that many games essentially copied titles that first made their apperence on the DC including your crappy heavy rain

There is no game like Heavy Rain on the DC at all (if you going to bring up QTA every game as copied that, and some may argue Dragon's Lair was the 1st) . Please don't bring up Shenmue, because both games are totally different.
It should also be noted that Omikron, The Nomad Soul also came out on the DC, by the same developer as heavy Rain and that was quite a lot like Shenmue in terms of scale

If you're going to bring Up PS online, PSO was basically Diablo on a console.

If you're going to bring in JSR, remember Fear Effect and Looney tunes space adventure, beat SEGA to cel shading.

If you're going to bring up Space Channel 5, remember it was the PS and the likes of Papara the Rapper that really gave birth to the rythem games on the consoles.

Samba ?, Sadly Namco beat SEGA to it with Taiko No Tatsujin

Seaman -Sadly NCL beat SEGA to that with Hey you Pikachu!

Skies of Arcadia - Well its hardly the 1st RPG

REZ - Hardly the only 3D shooter

Classic Download service- well maybe that was a true 1st, though NCL fans will no doubt bring up Sattleview

The trouble is the Japanese have made a living out of taking other peoples and ideas and simply mass producing them and making them better, Nobody more than SEGA
The DC is a brilliant and special console, but don't over play the fact that it played host to true 1st , because it really didn't . That doesn't make it any less specia

its all about the games, and why the DC is so special to many , was down to the games, not being true 1st. But because they looked and played so good

[Orta]

If you're going to bring in JSR, remember Fear Effect and Looney tunes space adventure, beat SEGA to cel shading.

Fear Effect was a bunch of pre-rendered areas with the cartooney characters and the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.

[Team Andromeda]

Fear Effect was a bunch of pre-rendered areas with the cartooney characters and the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.

Cartoon did you say?, my point exactly and it doesn't matter if it was using Pre Render backgrounds, this was the PS and the effect on the Characters much the same .To make out that  Looney Tunes is fake is just a bit laughable.  

In terms of True 1st consoles coming after the 8 bit era, never mind the 32Bit will have a hard time, simply down to the genre's being done before in some form or another .That doesn't lessen their impact or make them any less special. Does anybody really care that PSO wasn't the 1st Online RPG ?, does anyone really care that Daytona USA was the 1st racer or Nascar game, That Saga wasn't the 1st RPG (or I think where you don't have a party)

Who really  cares well they look and play so good ?

[fluffymoochicken]

Just a quick chime-in, then I'll be on my merry way:

the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.

Um... you could turn off the cel-shading in JSR as well, if you were the developer. O_o

If you're going to argue that it's "fake", then why not argue that all computer rendered graphics are "fake"?

[Sega Uranus]

Cel-Shading on a technical level is a filter that overlaps all of the polygons. There are ways to 'fake' it like how Looney Tunes Space Race did, it is just lines over the characters. Super Smash Brothers Melee did this too when Kirby ate Mr Game & Watch.

Fear Effect is not a Cel-Shaded game, it just has bright cartoony graphics coming from their textures, it has no filter.

A good example I think is Dark Cloud 2 or Klonoa 2. These games look Cel-Shaded, but are not. The character polygons have lines over them, but the world around them is just cartoony textures. In fact, the PlayStation 2 cannot do true Cel-Shading at all, which is why it was done in Jet Set Radio to turn heads away from that platform. A similar thing was done with Chaos in Sonic Adventure, as all previous consoles could not do a textured see-through effect, so they specifically made the character this way to impress people.

Something that is truly Cel-Shaded is something like The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker. I am pretty sure there is even a way to turn off the filter, the change is noticed instantly.

[Orta]

Fear Effect was a bunch of pre-rendered areas with the cartooney characters and the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.

Cartoon did you say?, my point exactly and it doesn't matter if it was using Pre Render backgrounds, this was the PS and the effect on the Characters much the same .To make out that  Looney Tunes is fake is just a bit laughable.  

It is, but I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't understand the tech. Bye.

[Team Andromeda]

It is, but I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't understand the tech. Bye

I know the tech, and inside SEGA it was called "Manga Dimension" ,and just a very clever use of the Power VR modifier Volume. SEGA loves to use fancy terms for its games, be it Blast Processing, FREE or Manga Dimension

And just because you can turn off effects in Space Race means nothing . There's games where you can turn off the Texture mapping, turn the Polygons into Wireframe and god knows what else (just play Moto GP for a huge list of GFX filter Effects as cheats), be they cheats or developer Easter egg's .

In fact, the PlayStation 2 cannot do true Cel-Shading at all, which is why it was done in Jet Set Radio to turn heads away from that platform

Just play Viewtiful Joe 1 and II, GioGio's Bizarre Adventure to see the PS2 handle Cell shading in all but name, they was also a Konami N64 Beat Them up that used Cel shading effect before JSR
In fact the DC could not do true Bump Mapping , but the effect was much the same In-game

A similar thing was done with Chaos in Sonic Adventure, as all previous consoles could not do a textured see-through effect,

I'm pretty sure the N64 could handle the effect

[Orta]

It is, but I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't understand the tech. Bye

I know the tech, and inside SEGA it was called "Manga Dimension" ,and just a very clever use of the Power VR modifier Volume. SEGA loves to use fancy terms for its games, be it Blast Processing, FREE or Manga Dimension

And just because you can turn off effects in Space Race means nothing . There's games where you can turn off the Texture mapping, turn the Polygons into Wireframe and god knows what else (just play Moto GP for a huge list of GFX filter Effects as cheats), be they cheats or developer Easter egg's .

I stand by my point. You do not understand the tech. Cel-shading isn't just about setting a couple of variables on and off. With basic OpenGL knowledge anyone can turn solid objects into wireframe objects with almost no effort. Disabling textures is the same. Cel-shading isn't trivial as this is, as it involves giving the correct lighting to the correct amount of polygons to achieve the effect, the outline is added according to how the model is facing the camera. Lots of geometry. If you look closely in Looney Tunes you will see that the tracks have cartoonish textures aiming for that effect instead of consisting of cel-shaded polygons. JSR has this too, but it's not as predominant (ie, everywhere) and was likely implemented to optimize the game. The character models have some trait to cel-shading but I have difficulty believing they implement the actual technique, my guess is the developers aimed for a cartoonish look using traditional techniques instead of a cel-shaded approach.

[Team Andromeda]

The character models have some trait to cel-shading but I have difficulty believing they implement the actual technique, my guess is the developers aimed for a cartoonish look using traditional techniques instead of a cel-shaded approach.

I remember very well the interview with the wacky Racers team, which also used a very similar effect , and when asked where did they get the idea for what was classed as 'Cel Shading' They said it wasn't JSR but they had been lucky enough to see a very each tech demo from Melbourn House which went on to become Looney Tunes,and early in it was using all sorts of Power VR effect to give the impression of a living cartoon in 3D

Cel-shading isn't trivial as this is, as it involves giving the correct lighting to the correct amount of polygons to achieve the effect, the outline is added according to how the model is facing the camera.

It can be, if your GFX card supports it like was the case with Moto GP on the X-Box.

And most times tech Nerds can get caught up to much .
Technically the Mega CD didn't do Sprite Scaling only Bitmap scaling to most the effect was just the same, Technically the Saturn did draw Polygons, but  2D disported sprites (warped from 4 angles) gave the same effect , and in both cases SEGA boasted about the Mega CD sprite scaling or the Polygons the Saturn could draw
I'm not sure how much actual 2D silicon Hardware support Modern consoles have for 2D sprites, but they seem to do a bloody good Job at it.

Now I love JSR and I love the Team that made it- The likes of Ueda-san ECT.  But there is no getting away from the fact that there were a couple of games before JSR which used the same look (or similar effect ). Like the N64 wasn't the 1st gaming system to ship with 4 Joypad's ports  has standard (Atari were the 1st) but like with JSR they more or less had such an impact, that they more or less standardised it.

I only wish Ueda-san was allowed to make his new Project, But alias it looks like its the Sonic Team for Ueda-sand

[Orta]

Obviously the team got the idea elsewhere. So must have Smilebit. Cel-shaded graphics surely predate any of the commercial games we can think of. There are a lot of things in academic circuits most people will hear about in a few years, if they actually ever hear about it. If we're going that far, then neither Looney Tunes nor Jet Set Radio were anything new.

Visual trickery is done all the time in an attempt to achieve the same or better looking results. This is done by changing elements in the environment which "cost" less to process therefore leaving processing time to other tasks. The examples you gave are good, you probably notice a lot more every time you play a game. The fact that a system "wasn't supposed to do this" is more of a marketing ploy than anything since it's a matter of the programmers' skills to optimize and improvise (within the hardwares capabilities versus what is trying to be achieved of course). Remember though, hardware or software implementations of cel-shading didn't exist back in the day, these were hard work. Tech nerds know stuff. However, I don't know how Moto GP works (or the Xbox API and hardware) as I never played or read anything about it so I will not comment on the game's option of flicking the shader on and off. Reading spec sheets is too easy.

[/offtopic]

[Centrale]

So just to clarify, cel shading is not a filter, in spite of its name.  Orta is correct in that it is a rendering technique which takes into account the orientation of each polygon in relation to the camera.  Each polygon has an invisible perpendicular line called a normal, which is typically used to smoothly calculate various attributes such as shading, specularity, and so on...  With cel-shading, interior polygons of a character (that is, ones that are not going to be outlined) are shaded in two or more distinct flat colors depending on the value of their angle to the camera (e.g., less than 45 degree angle will be a lighter color, whereas greater than 45 degrees will be a darker color).  As for the outline, an additional instance of the entire character model is extruded to a slightly larger scale along the polygon normals.  The outer surface of this additional model is invisible through backface culling, while the inner surface is black (or whatever color is selected for the outline).  Only the inner surface which is 90 degrees perpendicular (or within another specified range of values) to the camera at a given moment is visible, thereby generating an outline.  This technique of generating an outline therefore doubles the poly count of the model -- probably one of the main reasons we didn't see it used in prior generations of hardware.  Although it is interesting that we also didn't previously see it in non-realtime applications like animated films... it seems to have been pioneered in games, but might also have been originated through academic research.  Interesting that its origins are somewhat unclear.

[Team Andromeda]

If we're going that far, then neither Looney Tunes nor Jet Set Radio were anything new.

To be something really new and unique is very hard, more so after the cross over to 3D graphics in the 32 Bit Generation.

When you get down to it , the Cel shading look had been done before, not as well, or in complete 3D granted, but Fear Effect does look like a Cel shading effect.

Tech nerds know stuff

Yes they do, but do people really care if its bitmaps being scaling in batman Returns, rather than sprites?, that it was background scaling in on Snes games (even though in some games it was made to look like a sprite) Who really cares where the overall effect is just the same

However, I don't know how Moto GP works (or the Xbox API and hardware)

You can simply put a cheat in to play the game with Cel shading graphics as well as countless other graphics fillers. A little bit like you can in Shenmue II  on the X-Box and play the game with various graphics fillers enabled


And don't read into that that I'm underplaying the impact and legacy of JSR had on the gaming world. Its just that other games employed a similar effect before. Parappa The Rappa must have had some influence too

[ROJM]

another fact is that many games essentially copied titles that first made their apperence on the DC including your crappy heavy rain

There is no game like Heavy Rain on the DC at all (if you going to bring up QTA every game as copied that, and some may argue Dragon's Lair was the 1st) . Please don't bring up Shenmue, because both games are totally different.
It should also be noted that Omikron, The Nomad Soul also came out on the DC, by the same developer as heavy Rain and that was quite a lot like Shenmue in terms of scale

If you're going to bring Up PS online, PSO was basically Diablo on a console.

If you're going to bring in JSR, remember Fear Effect and Looney tunes space adventure, beat SEGA to cel shading.

If you're going to bring up Space Channel 5, remember it was the PS and the likes of Papara the Rapper that really gave birth to the rythem games on the consoles.

Samba ?, Sadly Namco beat SEGA to it with Taiko No Tatsujin

Seaman -Sadly NCL beat SEGA to that with Hey you Pikachu!

Skies of Arcadia - Well its hardly the 1st RPG

REZ - Hardly the only 3D shooter

Classic Download service- well maybe that was a true 1st, though NCL fans will no doubt bring up Sattleview

The trouble is the Japanese have made a living out of taking other peoples and ideas and simply mass producing them and making them better, Nobody more than SEGA
The DC is a brilliant and special console, but don't over play the fact that it played host to true 1st , because it really didn't . That doesn't make it any less specia

its all about the games, and why the DC is so special to many , was down to the games, not being true 1st. But because they looked and played so good

Don't make me laugh, Next thing you'll be telling us Nintendo had the idea for bringing out the Kawashima's style Brain training games before Sega did.Omikron AND HR both used the idea of the engine of SHENMUE and used it on other genres. That simple. Again half the titles were used to now is essentially down to the DC's influence with developers putting their spin on them. Half the titles you've mentioned didn't. Would capcom really have made monster hunter without PSO? Is that what you're saying? I didn't think so. The point that in the space between 2001- till now you can pinpoint a lot of games who have either ripped off or were inspired by the games that the DC presented. that's one of the reasons why its leagcy is important.
As far as i'm concerned the DC had the perfect balance between sega arcade gaming(even though some weren't perfect) and home development. The saturn didn't. Not to say the saturn didn't bring its own methods to the table which it did but unfortunatly aside from a small strong selection of sega first and second party titles it falls short way short if we were talking about Sega's output of games between the two systems. third party wise its probably one of the best supported in great jap third party titles outside the PCE for pure unadulterated gaming. but even then its a bit debatable on some of the TP's efforts because of the nature of what the DC had and the saturn had to offer.

[Team Andromeda]

Like I said before, they were those types of Brain/educational  onthe PC and even CDI, never mind BBC Micro and ZX Spectrum
I'll give NCL credit for making it into the sucess it became, not that they were the 1st to make it.
Lots of games are credited as being 1st, but there's been examples of them on forgotten consoles or computers . I know lots that like to credit Konami or Harmonics with being the 1st for music based games and controllers , when there was virtual Guitar on the PC back in early 90's


Yes with out PSO Capcom wouldn't have made HH just like SEGA would never have made Streets Of Rage with out Final Fight, no Final Fight with out the likes of Double Dragon or Kung Fu Master .

As far as i'm concerned the DC had the perfect balance between sega arcade gaming(even though some weren't perfect) and home development. The saturn didn't. Not to say the saturn didn't bring its own methods to the table which it did but unfortunatly aside from a small strong selection of sega first and second party titles it falls short way short if we were talking about Sega's output of games between the two systems. third party wise its probably one of the best supported in great jap third party titles outside the PCE for pure unadulterated gaming. but even then its a bit debatable on some of the TP's efforts because of the nature of what the DC had and the saturn had to offer.

Now that's better people can have a nice debate and point out each systems strengths and their own thoughts on the systems

Omikron AND HR both used the idea of the engine of SHENMUE and used it on other genres.

Omikron came out before Shenmue and was annouced before anyone had heard of Shenmue , infact it started development on the PS. I just don't know why you're going on the Shenmue engine.  Its just an engine, and the French more than most have a long history in making very cinematic games, and real open world games were all coming into force with the birth of 3DFX cards on the PC and games like the The Elder Scroll series with part II really being one of the 1st to feature fully 3D worlds