How Dreamcast Traumatised Gaming

[Sega Uranus]

The PS3's own library isn't quite as impressive as the PS2's, but it's gotten better over time. Its retail lineup certainly has more of a "something for everyone" vibe going for it than the 360 and Wii, which both seemed at times to be focused solely on a certain demographics (gramers and casuals, respectively).

Did you make up the term "Gramer"? I only ever heard you say it.

And that is awkward bias talking. The Xbox 360 has a lot of all kinds of games on it. Probably more than the PlayStation 3 does, even. It has more so it is easily possible.

[Aki-at]

I can understand the Playstation 3 against the Wii, but the Xbox 360? It's current collection is bigger and more varied than the Playstation 3 and the best multiplatform games are actually better on the Xbox 360. The Xbox360 in terms of it's library is the Playstation 2 of this generation in regards to varied games.

Also Wii has access to a large number of past consoles library, therefore the Wii is the best console on the market.

[Team Andromeda]

I don't agree that the DC was SEGA at its very best (well bar AM#1). For me that was with the SEGA Saturn

AM#3 were on fire with Decathlete a game that looked like a Model 2 game and still to this day is the best 2 player game after Sensi. Winter Heat was also brilliant as was Virtual On, Last Bronx (one of the best fighters ever made) and the SEGA Rally Port  they made with the CS Team, still the best racer (with the most perfect handling I ever played) .

AM#2 Were just something else onthe  Saturn . Virtual Cop was the Arcade in your own Home, VF II was and still is, a sensation, never mind the likes of Fighter Megamix (the best fan service game ever), Fighting Vipers, Virtual Cop II.

Sonic Team again were just at their best on the Saturn.
NiGHTS is still magical and a game quite unlike any other, Christmas NiGHTS the best Chritsmas game around (still to this day), Burning Rangers just sheer brilliance, Sonic Jam the best retro package, and I love the likes of Sonic R

Overworks were brilliant with its Sukura series and the criminality overlooked and underrated Deep Fear.

Team Andromeda were just something else producing 2 of the best 3D shooters around, and imo the best RPG SEGA ever made in its history.  
You then add in all the games SEGA produced and published and for me SEGA was at its creative peak with the Saturn, so were imo Game Arts, RAIZING, Treasure

I will say AM#1/WOW were better on the DC than they were on the Saturn . Though Die Hard Arcade is the best 3D beat them up, I've played to this day  I also think people overlook and don't rate SEGA early 3rd party games for the X-Box or Cube high enough . Monkeyball is for the best game on the CUBE (and should have been a 10 out of 10). SEGA GT 2002 (the best racer of last gen), HOTD III class, VF 4 Evo (most prob the best 3d fighter ever made) and words fail me at how good the likes of Orta and JSRF really are.

[Barry the Nomad]

...and yet, you love the Xbox 360. Would this qualify as irony?

His Xbox 360 never broke, so why would that bother him?

Thanks Sanus (+5 dharma points). It would be very stupid of me to jump on a hater bandwagon when I have no real life reason or experiences to lead me to hate something.

You should compare video game consoles by the games designed for it specifically, that is why Barry reacted so poorly to your forcefully arrogant posts.

Another +5 dharma, and +2 Greg. Drop the arrogance and focus on the topic at hand. Perhaps a reread of the original post would help:

It seems everyone here are celebrating the DC at the moment,which isn't really a change since the last white hope is always been celebrated at one point or another.

But I think there's a darker side to the DC story and this particular story hasn't ended because many Sega gamers that brought the system be they new or old are still suffering from what happened with this system.

Not the way it was crushed by sony or the fact it was generally ignored by the gaming public and press at the time. No, what the DC did was spoil a generation of sega fans with excellent games, to the point that those fans expected Sega to keep coming up with titles of the high standard that the DC generation of games set and by doing so any game released after that period regardless of being ok or very good was never going to match the standard which in my opinioon has resulted in people declaring Sega is crap or shit or worse because they weren't as great as the DC.

Not really understanding that previous sega systems with their own libary of games didn't necessarly match the playability,the fun and lastabilty that the DC seemed to have in its abundance.

The games that sega released when they re entered the third party race were very good,most were on the xbox but there were some on the PS2 as well. But if anyone remember's the general reaction to these games from the forums at the time it seemed that sega was over the hill. Worse, people were ignoring their arcade efforts at that time for various reasons and seemed to just focus soley n their console efforts. And that created a false preception which was quickly picked up by overzealous journalists and rival game fans that Sega was a dirty word in terms of game quality, but had the audacity to compare the newer titles to their DC ones which many i may add never brought the DC in the first place. They were just jumping on the bandwagon to the genuine confustion felt by many sega fans at that time.

While the noise has quieted down now, many people are still under a lot of misconceptions about Sega, where or who can make a good game, complaining about Sega west actually making games for the sega brand and so on. Not realising that as long as i've been buying sega games for console at least for over 28 years now they've always kind of operated that way.

Were now approching TGS. And there's a buzz about RGG and VAL and several others. You'd almost think that since they've gone third party those are the only great games they've produced after the DC era. And that criticism isn't leveled at just sega fans but most fans of gaming who frequent gaming forums, who actually take time to play their game and interact on the gaming netspace that 360 and PS3 offer.
Sega is guilty of letting a cat out of a bag but that cat just created an almost hysteria of expectations that no game company can continully live up to. Has sega produced bad games since DC? Yes, but they also produced bad games for all their systems at one point.
The question is was the output of real terrible games more than anything else they released? I'd say no just like any other games company. But no company has the legacy of the DC hanging over their head. A proud legacy to be sure but also a distracting one especially when the guys at sega try to conform to peoples demands on games even though certain games like Sonic, can arguable be said whose quality started to decline long before the DC was a light in Sega's eye.

[ROJM]

@Fluff: And with that statement there you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you've no idea on what you are talking about and that you weren't there at the time.

And with this statement, you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you have no idea what you're talking about and you assume you know everything about somebody that you've never met before.

I owned a Dreamcast in 1999. I was there at the time. Most of the gaming world did get along just fine without the Dreamcast. The people you see around SEGA gaming forums did not make up the majority of the gaming populace at the time. Sorry, but some of the things you believe are either misleading or flat-out wrong.

No you didn't own a DC at 99 so stop lying to me and to yourself. The fact you don't even seem to remember the gaming public mentality back then and after the DC era just goes to solidify my point. And you aren't even original to come up with an original retort of your own, you had to use mine. That exposes you more than it does me. How sad.

And I wasn't talking just about the sega forums but gaming forums in general which I made clear. If you can't even get someone's actual statement right don't expect people to think you are correct in anything you say.

As stated here.

You'd almost think that since they've gone third party those are the only great games they've produced after the DC era. And that criticism isn't leveled at just sega fans but most fans of gaming who frequent gaming forums

And its funny how you haven't been able to address anything i said properly. What's misleading? That the DC has a more better reliability rate than the PS2s? That the DC online service was better to the PS2 which was barely non-exsistant? That the great DC game designs were much better executed than the PS2 ones? Come on let's see how much of that is actually misleading? The answer is obvious down to the reason you never really adressed it in the first place,because you can't.

As for your list of games to prove the PS2 was better. Puh leeze. I could make a list of Nintendo titles compared to Master system titles and make out who had the better libary, simply because the nintendo had more titles.

[/quote]

You're right.

And in terms of the number of quality games, the NES would come out on top over the Master System

.

No it wouldn't bar from certain Nintendo first party games(which are quite small) and as couple of third parties the majority of NES software are bad titles. Quality over quantity any time.

Did you bother reading at all?

I suggest you take your own advice.

[ROJM]

PDCTSD- post dreamcast traumatic stress disorder

The real trauma of dreamcast was the tragedy of seeing a real gamer's game system, the best to ever be produced, annihilated by the corporate steam rollers of Sony and Microsoft and the wave of mainstream gaming fuckwads they brought in replacing the real gamers of old.

It's never been a problem of old vs new Sega; it's a problem of old-school gaming versus mainstream gaming. Sega like any other company is forced to produce the games that the market will accept and be commercially viable. I have no doubt that existing Sega developers given free reign today could produce titles that would eclipse the DC era ones in every regard. The problem is one of commercial acceptance and profitability in a mainstream dominated market forcing Sega to 'corporatize' their game design process with titles acceptable to the mass market first over the demands and wishes of the Sega loyalists; this in total contrast to the freedom of the independent studio DC days.

Demanding fans are an asset not a liability.

 The old Sega game design mentality was giving the fans what they need but not necessarly what they want. What that means is Sega as a company never really looked backward, they always strived forward in creating the next game,which is why in part no one saw sequels to fan fave series or only got to see an update of that series after a very long gap despite if it was succesful or not among various reasons. What happened after the DC era in my honest opinon is that after seeing a good system go down with solid software and then struggling to recapture the western markets they entered into what I call a company depression and that's when the distraction came in at leasrt where the west is concerned.

Designing games to applease the fans and trying too hard to match up to their DC legacy became a distraction to the point that it resulted in disastrous results. And the games that they were designing that did applease the commerical side of things were their japan centric titles that were never going to catch on in the States. And most of thiose titles were for the casual to kindergarten market.

If anyone team that suffered from this and really suffered I'd say it had to be no doubt Sonic Team, who's natural progression to becoming the consumer version of AM2 was severly stopped in its tracks after the death of DC. The titles outside of Sonic were not only great games but great designs and great ideas. What started in the middle era of ther Saturn was crtuelly halted and now Sonic Team is not even a shadow of its former self. If the DC hadn't died who knows what titles they would have released if their progress was allowed to grow organically. It was also a pity that their original PS3 title was put on hold and then canned never came out or we might have seen them return to more original game design and recapture some of that glory and reputation they were slowly but surely building up for themselves. Now with titles like NIGHTS Wii and half the post Sonic adventure style crap that won't happen anytime soon.

[ROJM]

Haven't had time to read this thread until now. I pretty much totally agree!

In fact Joe, if you would like to make a 'final perfect copy' of your opinions here, maybe anything you forgot to mention others may have interjected etc.

I would like to make this into a front page article... full credit to you of course.

Yeah you can use it, I don't have the time to do it myself as Shadi suggested because of work(The reason I'm away for longer periods and basically not around the forums like i use to be) so do whatever you want with it if ya gonna uise it, edit away.

[fluffymoochicken]

And that is awkward bias talking. The Xbox 360 has a lot of all kinds of games on it. Probably more than the PlayStation 3 does, even. It has more so it is easily possible.

Nope, I'm not being biased, I'm giving an honest opinion. Every time that I walk to the Xbox 360 section of a store, nothing is ever there that I care about. I've never had this big of a problem with any other console that I've owned before.

Additionally, of the 4 Xbox 360 retail titles I own:
-Two are also on PS3 (And one is better on PS3 due to free online play)
-One is from a series that's better on PS3 (Katamari Forever > Beautiful Katamari)
-One is a compilation of XBLA and arcade titles (Namco Museum Virtual Arcade)

If it weren't for XBLA titles and a few Indie games, I likely wouldn't even care about the 360 at all. There isn't a lot of something for everyone; aside from the Kinect, the main focus has largely been the Western mainstream gramer.

Thanks Sanus (+5 dharma points). It would be very stupid of me to jump on a hater bandwagon when I have no real life reason or experiences to lead me to hate something.

Okay, Barry, so I've had 3 busted Dreamcasts in my life, as well as seen  friend's DC that was malfunctional straight out of the box.

Does that mean it's fair for me to hate the DC and love the PS2 for that reason then? After all, in the 8 years I've had my PS2, it's never broken on me. And don't try to dodge this question, either; give it a straight yes or no answer.

No you didn't own a DC at 99 so stop lying to me and to yourself.

Yep, any credibility you might have had just went flying through the window. :lol: I saved up for the console myself and got it along with Sonic Adventure, Soul Calibur, and Marvel vs. Capcom. Then I ran out and got Power Stone after playing the awesome demo on the DC Generator disc that came with the system. I bought ODCM issue #1 off of a newsstand around August of 1999 and got a subscription to it immediately, and I still play around with those demo discs I got every now and then. 2000 was possibly the best gaming year of my life; I was totally obsessed with this marvelous system to the point that it drove other people nuts when I blabbed on and on about it. I didn't want to believe the rumors that SEGA was going to drop out of the race. This was too good of a thing to stop.

But, you know how many other gamer friends of mine gave a shit about Dreamcast at the time? Nobody. Nobody at all. Everyone knew that it was going to be steamrolled by the PS2, and nobody wanted to get one at first. A few of them even made fun of me for buying one back in '99. I had to convince them over the next year that it was a great console. By the end of 2000, it was like the go-to party game machine. 8-)

That the DC online service was better to the PS2 which was barely non-exsistant?

Question: Have you ever even played PS2 games online before? Because I haven't, and I've only ever known one person who has. How could you draw comparisons to something that virtually no one has experience with?

As for DC's online, it wasn't that great in retrospect. The games I tried playing online had way too much lag in them to be considered fair tests of competitive skill. Bomberman Online was the worst example of this. A lot of the times, I'd win/lose without really knowing what the hell happened. I guess the horrific lag might have been acceptable in games that were more cooperative oriented, but I didn't own any of those.

The only way I could imagine having a good competitive experience on the DC is if a person forked over the 100 bucks for the broadband adapter and then went out to find other players who also had the adapter.

So yeah... the DC might have had online out of the box, but it wasn't particularly great online gaming out of the box, either.

That the great DC game designs were much better executed than the PS2 ones?

Only in your warped gaming fantasy world that exists outside of actual reality. :lol:

[Radrappy]

But, you know how many other gamer friends of mine gave a shit about Dreamcast at the time? Nobody. Nobody at all. Everyone knew that it was going to be steamrolled by the PS2, and nobody wanted to get one at first. A few of them even made fun of me for buying one back in '99. I had to convince them over the next year that it was a great console. By the end of 2000, it was like the go-to party game machine. 8-)

Having owned a dreamcast since 9/9/99 I have to say this is the goddamn truth.  The only difference in my case is that no one ever became interested in getting one.  They were all too happy to play countless hours of dynasty warriors or armored core on their hip new ps2s.  

Im not sure what we're arguing about here tbh.  Obviously comparing these games will eventually come down to taste and circumstance.  Yes, the ps2 had a bigger and more diverse library.  But the reasons for that are so obvious that its not even worth discussing.

[Barry the Nomad]

Does that mean it's fair for me to hate the DC and love the PS2 for that reason then? After all, in the 8 years I've had my PS2, it's never broken on me. And don't try to dodge this question, either; give it a straight yes or no answer.

If the entirety of the last five pages boiled down to personal hardware failure/success experiences I'd have a reply to the above. But since it ignores a good 95% of what we've all been talking about, and assumes that everything we've been saying outside of personal hardware failures is irrelevant, I'm going to have to call it a stupid question that doesn't deserve an answer.

[fluffymoochicken]

If the entirety of the last five pages boiled down to personal hardware failure/success experiences I'd have a reply to the above. But since it ignores a good 95% of what we've all been talking about, and assumes that everything we've been saying outside of personal hardware failures is irrelevant, I'm going to have to call it a stupid question that doesn't deserve an answer.

Lol, you ignore the vast majority of what I write in my posts, you know. Pot calling the kettle black, part deux.

Also, I knew you wouldn't be able to answer the question. xD Nice dodging.

[Barry the Nomad]

Fucking read what I wrote. If you want an answer it is "The question you asked was stupid because it took a small piece of my argument and made it the end-all answer." Also, wasn't this entire topic about SEGA's software?



Get the train back on track, stop trolling or get a warning.

[Sega Uranus]

I don't agree that the DC was SEGA at its very best (well bar AM#1). For me that was with the SEGA Saturn

I think we can all agree that each major SEGA platform had a lot of greatness on it. Outside of maybe the Master System, each major game console they made has multiple games that people who never even touched can recognize as some of the best, most creative games of all time. That is an accomplishment that many platforms cannot uphold.

And that is awkward bias talking. The Xbox 360 has a lot of all kinds of games on it. Probably more than the PlayStation 3 does, even. It has more so it is easily possible.

Nope, I'm not being biased, I'm giving an honest opinion.

An opinion is not claiming something as a fact. Which you tried to, and I only pointed out why reasons like backwards compatibility should not count.

Every time that I walk to the Xbox 360 section of a store, nothing is ever there that I care about. I've never had this big of a problem with any other console that I've owned before.

If it weren't for XBLA titles and a few Indie games, I likely wouldn't even care about the 360 at all. There isn't a lot of something for everyone; aside from the Kinect, the main focus has largely been the Western mainstream gramer.

This seems like blind bias to me. With thousands of releases, and the majority of them being on both platforms it just seems like you are not trying hard enough or purposely trying to hate on it. I saw you doing this with releases like Halo ODST, where you made multiple threads on SEGA.com trying to get people to vote on it being the worst game of the year when you never even played it yourself, or even knew much about it, like the story. It all just screams to me that you want to hate it.

And there are plenty of releases on all platforms (yeah, even Wii) that can appeal to anyone, you just are not looking hard enough. Even so, what is wrong with "Western mainstream" games? Just because something is designed around a certain kind of appeal does not mean it is instantly shit. You told me you loved games like DOOM... Doesn't get much more "Western" and "Mainstream" than DOOM...

I mean, have you heard of DeathSmiles, Earth Defense Force 2017, WarTech, Spectral Force 3, Guilty Gear 2 or Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise? This is just off the top of my head and these are all games I think you would enjoy. They are also all exclusive to the Xbox 360.

Additionally, of the 4 Xbox 360 retail titles I own:
-Two are also on PS3 (And one is better on PS3 due to free online play)

That is a bullshit reason if I ever saw one. You pay to play on Xbox Live, yeah, but not for each game individually like your post made it sound.

[Sharky]

Article up:
http://www.segabits.com/?p=4180

feel free to comment. (kindly.)

[Barry the Nomad]

Kudos ROJM! A great article for a great post! :D