Not a bad read; Sexism in Videogames

[Emmett The Crab]

Kogen was horrible.

So anyway, my thoughts are these:

1)  It doesn't matter if Bayonetta was designed by a woman, because in reality, she was designed by a professional who knew her job, and knew what her target audience was.  

Maybe assuming that a woman couldn't make a sexist character is sexist?

2)  The idea of objectifying a video-game character is problematic.  They are already objects, and they exist discretely in the world they occupy.  If you took Bayonetta out of her world and put her in the real world, she would make no sense.  She lives in a world where a person like her can exist.  

(After making this point, I realize that I still have a problem with Disney plots that teach little girls to wait for the right man -- or prince -- to come along, scoop them out of their current life and define their future for them).  

3)  Bayonetta is not weak, not repressed, and certainly doesn't let anyone tell her what to do.  She has the power to kill god.  She fights for her own freedom, but she was also designed for a target audience of males, and moves, talks and even fights in a sexy, teasing sort of way.  So our question is, is this sexist?

I think part of what defines her character, part of her power is this male perspective of the woman you could never have.  Bayonetta is a tease, and a tease that can kill you with her hair.  I think it says a lot about the way people think, and this is a complex subject that would be worth study.  Although the game wasn't for me, I think the mythology, or the thinking behind this character and world are really interesting and should not be dismissed so offhandedly.  

4)  After reading Sharky's post, I asked my wife if Bayonetta was sexist.

"You mean the lady with the guns?"
"Yeah."
"Yes, definitely."

There was more discussion, but I was really interested in her first, gut-level impression.  She is a therapist, if that gives you any background.  (An actual psychologist, not a college student).  

I would say that at least in my experience, a girlfriend may mask her opinions because a new (or at least uncommitted) relationship is a little fragile, but a wife has no such reservations.  When we were dating, she was polite and non-committal about some of the death/thrash-metal music I listen to (King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Slayer, GWAR).  She is not that way now.

[MadeManG74]

Oh look it's Mademan... I was wondering when you'd show up to drop a one liner in someone else’s favour. Bound to be Aki.

When have I been racist... A real example of me having anything against any race?

If I come in with a 'one liner in someone else's favour' it's not that I'm trying to pick on you, it's just that I disagreed. If you want examples of why I thought so:

There was that time someone was talking in arabic and you described it as 'Then they came in with their fucking 'durka durka muhammed jihad bullshit' or something to that effect.

Another time you said that all Maories and 'Abbos' (A racist name for Aboriginals) looked the same, or that 'They're all the same to me'.

And in this thread, every time cube says someone/something is sexist, you immediately post videos about radical islamic laws or something, basically implying that because he's from Pakistan he must hate women.

In the 'What people are, what they want to be thread' you portrayed Aki-at as dreaming about being a suicide bomber and in reality he was a stereotypical middle-easterner working in a 7-11. He's never shown any indication ever of having extreme religious views, but you still seemed to think he wishes he could be a terrorist, seemingly just because he's islamic.

So yeah, pardon me for disagreeing with you, but I do think that have shown a racist attitude in the past. Do I think you are a bad person or actually hateful? No, I think you say this stuff as a joke sometimes or you don't mean to be offensive, but it's still come across as racist.

For the record, I always hated Kogen's bullshit too, but that was also partly because he was trying too hard for attention.

[cube_b3]

"You mean the lady with the guns?"
"Yeah."
"Yes, definitely."

There was more discussion, but I was really interested in her first, gut-level impression.  She is a therapist, if that gives you any background.  (An actual psychologist, not a college student).  

I would say that at least in my experience, a girlfriend may mask her opinions because a new (or at least uncommitted) relationship is a little fragile, but a wife has no such reservations.  When we were dating, she was polite and non-committal about some of the death/thrash-metal music I listen to (King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Slayer, GWAR).  She is not that way now.

Cool, a full fledge psychologist. I would like to add you to my msn.

[Sharky]

I would say that at least in my experience, a girlfriend may mask her opinions because a new (or at least uncommitted) relationship is a little fragile, but a wife has no such reservations.  When we were dating, she was polite and non-committal about some of the death/thrash-metal music I listen to (King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Slayer, GWAR).  She is not that way now.

Trust me, my girlfriend has no reservation telling me what she doesn’t like. I also didn't get her into Bayonetta directly she bought it herself and went onto buy the Bayonetta gun from ebay too.

Nothing to do with me, I should also say that it is the only game I've seen her play all day once.

She really has no problem with the character and in fact likes it.

I don't think your wife would feel pressured to agree with you but I do wonder if she is looking at 'sexism' in the same way as cube it. I mean gut reaction to a girl like Bayonetta would be 'sexist' but after playing through the game I would disagree, so would my girlfriend.

There was that time someone was talking in arabic and you described it as 'Then they came in with their fucking 'durka durka muhammed jihad bullshit' or something to that effect.

This I do not agree with, don't remember happening and outright disagree that it was me.

As far as I've ever gone with regard to language is saying 'moon speak' for other languages...

Another time you said that all Maories and 'Abbos' (A racist name for Aboriginals) looked the same, or that 'They're all the same to me'.

I'll hold my hand up and admit that I did say 'Abbos' I didn't actually know it was a racial slur though. Also, I can whole heartedly promise that I do remember that convocation and I also remember the reason was that I had no idea (and still don’t) know how to spell 'aboriginay'...(I just googled that.)

I don't remember saying 'they all look the same' but I wouldn't be shocked if I did... I honestly have heard just about every race say 'these people look the same' I've heard it from whites about blacks, blacks about Asians, Hispanics about whites and so on, pretty much everyone. (George to me lol)

In fact the other week I was watching a documentary about white people going to an African tribe and the Africans were saying in their language how they find all white people look the same with their 'big noses' tbh it just makes me laugh.

If I'm completely honest I think there really is something in each race that makes it easier to tell their own peoples features apart while the features of other races seem less obvious.

And in this thread, every time cube says someone/something is sexist, you immediately post videos about radical islamic laws or something, basically implying that because he's from Pakistan he must hate women.

You are exaggerating... and again, like I just told aki. I'm not saying anything of the sort and I'm clearly being misunderstood (on purpose by some I'm sure...)

Even though I have made no connection between Cube hating woman. Why are people putting these words in my mouth... I'm just giving an example of sexism in a country he comes from. I never ONCE insinuated that he did, he did anything sexist or hateful or that EVERYONE in Pakistan does... Go back and read my comments from the start.


Oh and as for anything I said about Aki, that is a joke. I wasn't the only one either... I believe it came about as a joke after Aki sounding a little sympathetic towards suicide bombers in convosation long ago.


Fact is if you dig hard enough you could find these faux 'racism' comments from pretty much anyone... If you want to pull me up on these things and call me racist then this forum is flat out full of racists.

[Emmett The Crab]

Cool, a full fledge psychologist. I would like to add you to my msn.

 I'm terrible about chat clients.  I haven't been on them in years.  They make work impossible for me.

Trust me, my girlfriend has no reservation telling me what she doesn’t like. I also didn't get her into Bayonetta directly she bought it herself and went onto buy the Bayonetta gun from ebay too.

Nothing to do with me, I should also say that it is the only game I've seen her play all day once.

She really has no problem with the character and in fact likes it.

I don't think your wife would feel pressured to agree with you but I do wonder if she is looking at 'sexism' in the same way as cube it. I mean gut reaction to a girl like Bayonetta would be 'sexist' but after playing through the game I would disagree, so would my girlfriend.

Of course I can only speak from my own experience.  Of course you know better with your own relationship.   :mrgreen:

You may be right.  She never played it, but she did watch me play large sections of the game as I was getting toward the end.  

Anyway, I think we can agree that although there are female gamers, and there are female gamers playing Bayonetta, the target audience is men.  That doesn't make the game sexist, though.

Also, can we stop calling each other racist?  I think if someone has a problem with a specific post, you should report it, but it feels like it's gotten out of hand.

[Aki-at]

1) If I say both Muslims and Christians are wrong, there is no god. Am I being racist in your opinion?.

No, however thinking that they are incapable of x or x would be another matter. If they are being sectioned out simply for being what they are, then that is a cause for concern. Basically anyone can be discriminated.

3)If that is the case you've been racist multiple times against the French.

This is why my avatar for around two years is of a 60 year old football manager from France and a man I hold in high regards.

Indians

What have I even once said about Indians?

and Pakistanis on MSN...
What was it now? Pakistan is the *insert poor country here* of the middle east? People in your trade don't like dealing with them, why was that again?

Firstly, Pakistan is not in the Middle East, it's in the Indian subcontinent and it is in sharp decline over the past few years, a fact. Terrorist activities has destabilize large portions of the country.

And yes, people in my trade do not like dealing with Pakistanis and I have met landlords who have said they do not want Pakistanis because they are too much trouble for them, but that does not mean I do not deal with them, as long as they have good credit and references, it is no problem for me.

That would be racist for sure... But that ISN'T what I was saying. I never even hinted at cube being like this.

Bayonetta is sexist but in Pakistan where cube (the main accuser of Bayonetta being sexist) is from it is deeply rooted and widely accepted, and it is.

So why are you going on about Pakistan when it has nothing to do with the discussion and the reason on how Cube feels about the character? He has even posted beforehand about the radical problems of his country too and that comment there did imply his country had an influence in his thinking.

Oh and as for anything I said about Aki, that is a joke. I wasn't the only one either... I believe it came about as a joke after Aki sounding a little sympathetic towards suicide bombers in convosation long ago.

I do not care about name calling much but I have never ever been sympathetic to suicide bombers at any point of my life so I have no idea where you've come to this conclusion with? I allow jokes to be made at my expense of course but I've never actually made any allowence for said jokes that originate solely from my background.

[MadeManG74]

I'm glad that you responded to my examples Sharky, and again, note that I don't think you are a hateful person or a bad person because of those things, but just that they did sound racist at the time.

Trust me, I've heard far, far worse from people, especially in regards to Aborigines. And to be fair, almost everyone uses the term 'Abbo', it's not a nice thing to say, but it's also not usually used in a hateful way.

[Sharky]

No, however thinking that they are incapable of x or x would be another matter. If they are being sectioned out simply for being what they are, then that is a cause for concern. Basically anyone can be discriminated.

I have no problem with people wearing what ever they like... if someone wants to wear a berqua that is fine with me. That I have said from the very start.

But my original point was that surely woman should be able to choose to wear one or not... Or even be athiest if they want. MY point is that females are often controlled/seen as lesser then men in Pakistan society. Many other countrys too but I was using Pakistan as an example simply because cube is from there and he can relate to it.

This is why my avatar for around two years is of a 60 year old football manager from France and a man I hold in high regards.

I don't think what I've said in this thread is anymore racist then anything you have said about french people...

I'm not saying you are racist... I'm just pointing out the double standards as I don't think I've said anything racist.

What have I even once said about Indians?

I accidently mentioned you ran an indian cafe/resteraunt and I remember you reacted in a 'disgusted' way to it... Even though indian food is fantastic.

Firstly, Pakistan is not in the Middle East, it's in the Indian subcontinent and it is in sharp decline over the past few years, a fact. Terrorist activities has destabilize large portions of the country.

And yes, people in my trade do not like dealing with Pakistanis and I have met landlords who have said they do not want Pakistanis because they are too much trouble for them, but that does not mean I do not deal with them, as long as they have good credit and references, it is no problem for me.

Well then, I don't think I've been anymore racist then this right here... Frankly I've yet to find anything I've said that is racist but if you think I have then this is just as bad as anything Ive said, if not worse.

I mean the reason you brought this up was related to Cube...

So why are you going on about Pakistan when it has nothing to do with the discussion and the reason on how Cube feels about the character? He has even posted beforehand about the radical problems of his country too and that comment there did imply his country had an influence in his thinking.

Because why ever not?

It's a good example of what I would call sexism in a way he can probably relate to/has seen happening.

I never in this thread said that Cube is LIKE this, only that it happens in his country.

I do not care about name calling much but I have never ever been sympathetic to suicide bombers at any point of my life so I have no idea where you've come to this conclusion with? I allow jokes to be made at my expense of course but I've never actually made any allowence for said jokes that originate solely from my background.

Not a conclusion I've come too... But I wasn't the first person making these jokes about you either... In fact I really don't remember making these jokes at all but I wont deny it, it's possible but it's also a joke... and not at your expense either. If it bothers you I think you should make it known amongst alot more people on this forum then me.