Sonic Generations General Discussion

[ROJM]

That is completely incorrect.

The first game AND the sequel cost a combined budget of $21 million. No way was Kenzan going to cost them £30 million.

What? Sonic games have over a hundred people working on it, it is not a small team at all.

It is incorrect, but what do you expect from someone who wants to use his presumptions and personal hatered mixed with downright lies as fact against a "superstar" developer he doesn't like. Considering that Nagoshi hasn't ran any particular Sega franchise to the ground or taken credit for creating a franchise started by others who brought this individual to initially code for.

[Aki-at]

The 20 Million figure did not included the sequel at all. The Budget for Yakuza was over 20 million for the 1st game alone and that is a Fact.

Seeing as Yakuza cost over 20 million alone, and Kenzan was a bigger production in terms of man power, budget not helped buy the high costs of High Def next gen development . I see no reason why Kenzan didn't cost SEGA 30 million.

No it was not, stop being misinformed about a subject. SEGA said the combined budget of both Yakuza 1 and 2 was close to 2.4 billion yen which translated at the time to $21 million.

So again, it is just not likely, prove me otherwise without guesstimates.

[Waffle]

It is incorrect, but what do you expect from someone who wants to use his presumptions and personal hatered mixed with downright lies as fact against a "superstar" developer he doesn't like. Considering that Nagoshi hasn't ran any particular Sega franchise to the ground or taken credit for creating a franchise started by others who brought this individual to initially code for.

I love you. Keep up this golden work.

[ROJM]

No it was not, stop being misinformed about a subject. SEGA said the combined budget of both Yakuza 1 and 2 was close to 2.4 billion yen which translated at the time to $21 million.

So again, it is just not likely, prove me otherwise without guesstimates.

This subject has been covered here countless times and its always been proven to be in the 20 million figure.  SHENMUE ONLINE cost more because that game went for 25 million initially before it too like its predecessor went past its budget.KENZEN budget would have been at least in the 15-19 million range since the extra cost would have come from the VG engine mapping the famous japanese actors being used in the game. The engine itself had already been paid for and the investment on that engine was paying for itself because the first two titles were already succesful, let alone six of the titles using the same tech.

I love you. Keep up this golden work.

I'm not gay, sorry. And the fact that Sonic 2 the most succesful title in the series had little naka involment kinda speaks volumes. But hey stick with the naka Adventure crap that basically ruined the series and I'll stick with the actual good sonic MD series.

[Team Andromeda]

No it was not, stop being misinformed about a subject. SEGA said the combined budget of both Yakuza 1 and 2 was close to 2.4 billion yen which translated at the time to $21 million.

So again, it is just not likely, prove me otherwise without guesstimates.

The 20 million plus budget was confirmed before the original Yakuza was even released , and unlike this ubar myth that's been generated the Team weren't planning on making instalments

US, August 24, 2005

Yesterday, SEGA officially unveiled Ryu Ga Gotoku, a new PS2 project set for Japanese debut later this year. In development with producer Toshihiro Nagoshi at SEGA's NE R&D Division, Ryu Ga Gotoku has many similarities with SEGA's Dreamcast Shenmue project, including a massive scope and a sense of reality about the world. Today, we learned of one additional similarity: cost.

According to the Japanese mainstream press (who tend to keep track of these kinds of things), SEGA has shelled out some serious yen for the development of Ryu Ga Gotoku. At the game's unveiling yesterday, the company gave a figure of 2.4 billion yen for production costs, which comes out to close to twenty-one million dollars. That's not quite Shenmue territory, but it's still well above most titles.

In addition to this surprising number, IGN has learned a few extra bits about the game since our update yesterday. SEGA will be including a few Japanese brand names in the product. Suntory brand beverages will appear in the game under their actual names. Discount shop Don Quijoti will appear as well, complete with its theme song (and hopefully minus the arsonists).

SEGA expects players to get at least forty hours of play time from the title -- and that includes more than just gameplay. As suggested in yesterday's story, the game places a heavy emphasis on story, which has players set off in search both of a stolen billion yen and a missing childhood friend. The game will have some seedy elements, including companion clubs and a character whose biography makes clear mention of her being an F-Cup.

Development on Ryu ga Gotoku is currently at 80% with SEGA aiming for a Japanese release this winter. No word yet from SEGA of America on a US release, but with such a huge budget, we presume someone considered an international audience (but apparently forgot to keep that audience in mind when coming up with the very Japanese name).

[ROJM]

The 20 million plus budget was confirmed before the original Yakuza was even released , and unlike this ubar myth that's been generated the Team weren't planning on making instalments

Rubbish,most games especially these days have sequels in mind. With a budget like that and the fact that a sequel was released a year after indicates that the actual budget was for two titles using the same game engine and not one. If anyone is naive to think someone is going to spend 2 billion yen just for one title and not expect to milk it in some form is absolutly out of their mind.

[Team Andromeda]

Considering that Nagoshi hasn't ran any particular Sega franchise to the ground or taken credit for creating a franchise started by others who brought this individual to initially code for.

You also say that and one will always ask , what game does Naka take credit for that he never actual worked on ? And as for running a game series into the ground. Well Nagoshi titles like Monkeyball and Virutal Striker have done that too. Like with Sonic that's more do with the top brass demanding sequels that the fault of the actual Team

 Kezan cost more than Yakuza to make . Like Nagoshi said it was the biggest consumer title and production he had ever worked on since he joined SEGA.

. And the fact that Sonic 2 the most succesful title in the series had little naka involment kinda speaks volumes.

I think Waffel was praising your post in an attempt to have a go at me, but you just couldn't see it . Anyway Naka was head programmer of Sonic II , just like Sonic 1 So your point about Sonic II is utterly laughable

What Next Shinji Mikami not responsible for Resident Evil, because Resident Evil II sold better and Mikami wasn't so involved with that title as he was with RE ?

[Team Andromeda]

Rubbish,most games especially these days have sequels in mind. With a budget like that and the fact that a sequel was released a year after indicates that the actual budget was for two titles using the same game engine and not one. If anyone is naive to think someone is going to spend 2 billion yen just for one title and not expect to milk it in some form is absolutly out of their mind.

? If that was the case , they would have been no need for a sequel you just include everything in 1 game. All teams will have unused assets they can quickly use if the title takes off like with Dino  Crisis, Onimusha (Capcom biggest ever spend at the time) but Onimusha massive budget was put to the 1st title a

And Teams spending big on game is nothing new, Yes they'll hope for sequels some are even planned , but keep on dreaming if you think Too Human Huge Budget means Too Human II and III are already paid for, The industry doesn't work like that. Most of the money goes on the 1st game

[ROJM]

You also say that and one will always ask , what game does Naka take credit for that he never actual worked on ? And as for running a game series into the ground. Well Nagoshi titles like Monkeyball and Virutal Striker have done that too. Like with Sonic that's more do with the top brass demanding sequels that the fault of the actual Team

I've always answered. Stop playing dumb its beneath you. And VIRTUA STRIKER and SMB really hasn't been run to the ground like SONIC has. Instead of both condeming them for whatever tresspasses they've done, you keep praising one developer and making unfounded accusations against the other. Everyone knows that Naka is egotistical asshole whose been handed everything on a plate even at the cost of the company he's worked for.Taking credit for things when its been a team effort and quick to blame others when a project fails, when he was the main guy in charge of the project in the first place. But instead of seeing it like that you see things in black and white, oh he's good that means he's brilliant at anything and anyoneone who criticises him automatically means that in your mind they hate the guy even if they acknowledge that they have made good games. I'm just not a zealot so i call things the way they actually are, not who i happen to like or dislike.
has he made good games? Yes, is he a good coder? yes but he's not the god, nor the creator of sonic that you like to make him out to be.

Kezan cost more than Yakuza to make . Like Nagoshi said it was the biggest consumer title and production he had ever worked on since he joined SEGA.

You mean the first RGG game to hit what was at the time the new console on the block? Yeah developers say lots of things just to hype up a title especially a game that wasn't a direct sequel. He then went on to say RGG 3 was a big title for him in Famitsu if i recall. RGG KENZEN did not cost 30 million dollars to make and the fact you haven't proven that it did means this argument is non and void.

I think Waffel was praising your post in an attempt to have a go at me, but you just couldn't see it . Anyway Naka was head programmer of Sonic II , just like Sonic 1 So your point about Sonic II is utterly laughable

Are you blind? How do you think the comment I made to Waffle was in anyway thinking that i thought he approved? That's what i mean by you twisting things, and waffle is in your fan club than he is mine and that's fine by me since i wouldn't want a poisonous racist sonic fan as my supporter. And look up the facts, Naka was hardly involved in the making in Sonic 2 IE the words LITTLE involvement. Especially when he breifly LEFT Sega during that period of S2 development. I suggest you stop reading wiki as your source of information.

What Next Shinji Mikami not responsible for Resident Evil, because Resident Evil II sold better and Mikami wasn't so involved with that title as he was with RE ?

So with that comment you DO  believe naka was responsible for creating the series? Great contradiction there with a lousy example. Look at the sonic games where Naka been soley responsible for including Sonic 2006 and we see a pattern of increasingly crap titles. The MD series was ran by a team and unlike your fave coder there is no I in team which naka was a part of and in no way not the inspiration.

[ROJM]

? If that was the case , they would have been no need for a sequel you just include everything in 1 game. All teams will have unused assets they can quickly use if the title takes off like with Dino  Crisis, Onimusha (Capcom biggest ever spend at the time) but Onimusha massive budget was put to the 1st title a

And Teams spending big on game is nothing new, Yes they'll hope for sequels some are even planned , but keep on dreaming if you think Too Human Huge Budget means Too Human II and III are already paid for, The industry doesn't work like that. Most of the money goes on the 1st game

What you mean EA doesn't spend millions on an engine for its sports games and then milk the same engine for years? Didn't Sega plan the same thing for SHENMUE which initially worked? The point of a big budget production especially when sega has committed to it is to create the revenue and gain back the invesment made for the engine. a game like that would always have a sequel designated for it IF the game became succesful or sold enough units which was in no doubt. The game industry have always worked liked that. And TH was a title that went OVER BUDGET and stuck in development hell and not even a good example to prove your point. A point you are increasingly losing because its based on a guess and not on a fact.

[Sega Uranus]

Picture that if the 2.4 billion yen budget for just Yakuza 1 was true, how was Yakuza 2 so much larger, much more refined and just generally had way more content in every way than the first and was developed within around the time of a year and the first game by itself took much longer?

Also consider that both the first and second game had the exact same staff? No future releases had the literal same staff, games rarely do.

Seeing as Yakuza cost over 20 million alone, and Kenzan was a bigger production in terms of man power, budget not helped buy the high costs of High Def next gen development . I see no reason why Kenzan didn't cost SEGA 30 million.

It is a really strange estimate to just assume the game just cost 5 million more than your other estimate. 5 million is a lot of money, probably the budget of 3 or more handheld games even.

You also say that and one will always ask , what game does Naka take credit for that he never actual worked on ? And as for running a game series into the ground. Well Nagoshi titles like Monkeyball and Virutal Striker have done that too. Like with Sonic that's more do with the top brass demanding sequels that the fault of the actual Team

You should not be blaming Nagoshi for Super Monkey Ball and Virtua Striker's demise. He has no control over those IPs anymore, all of the console and handheld SMB games since Banana Blitz have been by DIMPS, Super Monkey Ball Adventure was made by Travelers Tales also, it is just out of his hands.

I have no idea on what SEGA wants to do with Virtua Striker, but I know Nagoshi has no control over it.









I am really Glad to have the Glory Days of Joe v. TA back , hench the fighting and big empty spaces .

[Sharky]

Sanus, I read your comment. I disagree with various parts of it but I don't think either of us are going to back down and I don't really have the paitence for the kind of on going huge debates I would have ones got myself into... (and then wished I hadn't when he didnt end after 10 pages)

So I'm going to have to agree to disagree.

I think Sonic Generations looks like a great game, I had fun with the demo and when it does launch with gripes here and there, which it will... I hope people can look past it and enjoy the game as they did when they were playing Sonic Adventure and instead of holding their hands up and saying OMG SONIC TEAM ARE SHIT. They see the frankly quite amazing improvments they have made since Sonic 06 and hope that the NEXT Sonic game is even better still.

[CrazyT]

Are you blind? How do you think the comment I made to Waffle was in anyway thinking that i thought he approved? That's what i mean by you twisting things, and waffle is in your fan club than he is mine and that's fine by me since i wouldn't want a poisonous racist sonic fan as my supporter. And look up the facts, Naka was hardly involved in the making in Sonic 2 IE the words LITTLE involvement. Especially when he breifly LEFT Sega during that period of S2 development. I suggest you stop reading wiki as your source of information.

So with that comment you DO  believe naka was responsible for creating the series? Great contradiction there with a lousy example. Look at the sonic games where Naka been soley responsible for including Sonic 2006 and we see a pattern of increasingly crap titles. The MD series was ran by a team and unlike your fave coder there is no I in team which naka was a part of and in no way not the inspiration.

I really don't want to get involved in this discussion, but the whole "Yuji Naka isn't that great and he was not involved in the best selling classic title" just makes no sense to me whatsoever. Sonic CD was being created in the same period of time. Even though people claim that it's the best sonic game (I think mainly for it being on better and more capable hardware), there were tons of issues with sonic CD in the controls and physics, wich I assume some other guys tweaked upon from sonic 1. Yuji Naka was not involved.

Sonic 2 however felt just as polished if not better than sonic 1. Yuji Naka has also claimed in many interviews being behind the programming of all the moving and interacted objects. Just recently there have been many interviews with him being present in the 20th aniversary celebrations (sonic boom and Summer of sonic). With every question that involved programming, Iizuka would always point to Yuji Naka and he would thoroughly explain and answer the questions.

I really don't know where this Yuji Naka bashing is coming from. I actually think he was less involved at the time sonic's quality was declining.

[Team Andromeda]

Picture that if the 2.4 billion yen budget for just Yakuza 1 was true, how was Yakuza 2 so much larger, much more refined and just generally had way more content in every way than the first and was developed within around the time of a year and the first game by itself took much longer

It word a top Quality Team. Like with how Ubisoft able to make a new Assassin's Creed every year (while the 1st game too over 3 years)  while being a true open world game with new Cities to be put in - 2 New huge cites will feature in Revelations, yet the Team had little over a year since Brotherhood.

Mind you a massive Budget a team over 500 people helps with such matters , and that's the case with Yakuza Huge Team and lots of money, helps with the development

You should not be blaming Nagoshi for Super Monkey Ball and Virtua Striker's demise

And that's why I blame the top brass of SEGA. Naka and Sonic Team had already enough of Sonic and wanted to move with NiGHTS, Sadly SONIC makes money,  so the Top brass demand and  ever more Sonic's.

What you mean EA doesn't spend millions on an engine for its sports games and then milk the same engine for years

Every Team will use the same engine (all be it and an improved one) for an sequel in most cases , unless there were issues with the main engine or the is a doubling of the frame rate called for (which can lead to complete engine and pipelines rewrites) . Your point about Fifa is silly too... Each FIFA costs EA a huge amount of money to make and the staff needed to make FIFA each year is simply huge, running on the same engine or not.

I've always answered

You have yet to name the game, which Naka has never worked on, but that's credit for . So once and far all, name this game.

And look up the facts, Naka was hardly involved in the making in Sonic 2

No he was just the main programmer.

You mean the first RGG game to hit what was at the time the new console on the block

A mean the biggest production Nagoshi-san had ever worked on as Head of the Consumer Team . Meaning it cost more than Yakuza to make.  Mind you 25 to 30 million isn't that big a deal of Next Gen productions it's just the average










 

[CrazyT]

Yeah I think the credits are far more credible than what ROJM is claiming. Sonicretro has a great wiki page so go and check it out.

^post just related to the sonic 2 discussion. I don't know about the yakuza cost of development.