SEGA hit by 73 people layoff, more focus on digital games

[Sega Uranus]

I don't see the contradiction with the arcade hits, that was obviously Sega's arena that Sony never touched. None of the aforementioned games come close to the massive sales the mainstream mega sellers pull today.  If you look at the top 10 charted games today they are not arcadey at all.

All of the games I mentioned were successes on consoles. There are tons of others I did not mention, like Golden Axe and Shining. Streets of Rage and Phantasy Star was also always a console exclusive and Shinobi games were much much more popular on the console platforms it was on.

Shenmue in Japan comes down to the DC's weakness in that territory and the gaming audience swept up in PS2 hype and shifting towards Playstation style gaming.  Shenmue Online, of course, was a Chinese game? Maybe I'm just not following your point about Shenmue?

Excuses excuses, you have a flawed argument and will just not admit it.

Also, tons of their kiddy games fail. Billy Hatcher was supposed to be a whole new brand image, Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll was the first very kiddy game in the series, guess what? It was the ONLY flop in the entire franchise so far. Same with Virtua Quest, a complete bomb.

Yeah, but none of those compare to Nintendo's awesome kiddy power.

You missed my point completely. You said the only Japanese-made SEGA games that are successes are their kiddy games. This is completely false.

[George]

How did gaming start niche?

"Home Pong was an instant success following its limited 1975 release through Sears; around 150,000 units were sold that holiday season. The game became Sears' most successful product at the time, which earned Atari a Sears Quality Excellence Award."

Does not sound niche to me.

[Barry the Nomad]

True dat. Gaming in no way grew from niche to mainstream, gaming BEGAN as mainstream then grew to support a variety of niche games. Hell, look at arcade and video game culture from the early 70's! Video games and arcades were a huge success. Even my parents, who never owned a gaming system in their lives, remember playing arcade games back in the day. People went crazy for Pong!

Now if you are going as far back as Tennis, Ping Pong and Spacewar!,all homebrew efforts only experienced by those who owned one of these:

then maybe you could argue niche, but that was only because they weren't commercially available. I'd say gaming began as an elite hobby (elite in the sense that few owned computers) and hit mainstream in its first commercial release (Pong).

[MadeManG74]

I think the fact that Jet Set Radio's Japanese sales are higher than Grand Theft Auto IV's world-wide sales is a clear indicator of the industry's woes. Especially considering that Jet Set Radio was just a boring Sim-style game whereas GTAIV was a rollercoaster of emotion and intricate and off-beat ideas. The fact that WWE's Undertaker was every character in the game only supports my idea as well.

[Sega Stylista]

PROOF!

LOOK AND LEARN!

YAY!

INDUSTRY U.S. REVENUES:



Industry revenues more than doubled from 3.2 to 6.9 billion during the PS1 years thanks to Playstation's mainstream drawing power!

George, look at U.S. industry growth between fall of 1999 to 2000.  It was down!  Buh, buh I thawt DC was mainstreamz, Eastsides!

Oh, woah! Industry revenues explode for PS2 launch!  Dis mainstreamz shit for real, yo!

Industry revenues double again during the PS2 years due to its Casual Engine and Mainstream Synthesizer powered by DVD!!!

Crap! Another big industry mainstream fart thanks to Wee Wee! HOORAY FOR MAINSTREAM AND CASUAL!!!

TA, LOOK!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

Considered by some as a curiosity in the mid-1970s, the computer and video game industries have grown from niche markets to mainstream.

IT GREW FROM NICHE TO MAINSTREAM, OMG!!!

REALITY!

REALITY WINS!

USA!

USA!

USA!

USA!

[George]

Pong home was one of the very first consoles, hit mainstream success upon coming out. end of. Wiki as a source? Awesome.

[MadeManG74]

Shenmue sold more than UEFA Dream Soccer on Dreamcast by a good margin. Hence, Shenmue is more mainstream and casual than Soccer games.

[Team Andromeda]

TA, LOOK!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

You lost any credibility there mate . Sorry anyone here can edit Wikipedia .

Shenmue sold more than UEFA Dream Soccer on Dreamcast by a good margin

So did Seaman, but I wouldn't class that game as mainstream

[MadeManG74]

Shenmue sold more than UEFA Dream Soccer on Dreamcast by a good margin

So did Seaman, but I wouldn't class that game as mainstream

Exactly, I was just being sarcastic to show how flawed his reasoning was.

[ROJM_old]

Thanks. You're absolutely right. I saw that Kaz Hirai PS2 lauch quote recently saying that PS2 was "the future of entertainment" referring to not just gaming. But don't tell TA that cuz it doesn't jibe with his theory of a gaming market that never evolved and let's not kid ourselves that the PS2 launch hype was as much or more about DVD than games. Or that PS2 sold as a DVD player first when the launch titles were too few in number and quality against DC's awesome line-up. But none of that matters to, TA.

DC was a pure game machine despite what other secondary functions Sega tacked onto the packaging of the console. That's why DC is often referred to, correctly, as the last hardcore game machine.

Wii is a fucking piece of shit not even worth mentioning in a discussion like this, but don't forget that it is an exercise machine with no gaming functions for a lot of overweight women.

Not the point. Whatever one's personal opinion of the Wii the main point was that this isn't new Nintendo going for a family image console that appealed to the masses because that's exactly what they did with the original NES. The difference between them and nintendo however is that Nintendo has a core game using their IP at the heart of its product which sony never really had. Again the Saturn was never marketed as a multimedia device by SOJ, neither was the gamecube either. The MS and Sony systems were. And as for someone's DC comment, the online functions like the ones for the other sega systems were used to enhance gameplay and not for anything much else. Yet the real games machine the 360 and xbox dvd and music abilities really enhance gameplay. And yes the PS2 and PS3 half piped dvd /blueray functions respectivly really made DMC a memorable experience. Like i said Sega style or SS for short, these gamers who think that are nothing but corporate whores. Which makes me laugh why they saying you are when to my eyes ( i haven't followed every post you made) been waving the flag for traditional gaming in this topic.

As for your discussion with the abomination. The guy likes to twists things and half the people here are regurtitating the same propaganda he's spilling because they want to impress him because they think he knows everything. I always find that once you scratch the service in any discussion with TA there is no or little substance apart from erronous facts he got from reading retromagazines that look at the past with hindsight and not neccessarly with a fair hand. The facts is he's not really talking about the reality of the situation at the time. Anyone who was actually playing games at the time knew exactly what the situation was and what happened.
NEC games division making more money than Sega? A company who not only dominated the arcades industry at the time,but had its foot in the door in three markets,europe being the one where it dominated and coming a very distant second in the rest of the world where NEC didn't have the honour of being a distant third let alone anything else? NEC only dominated Japan and that was a breif period and even then it was still outsold by the famicom and if they had more money to spend then somebody should have tell them considering Sega outspent and out marketed them at everyturn during the formative years of the genesis in america. Sega had adverts everywhere during the Genesis does, 16 bit revolution campaigns which went on for a solid three years. NEC only had two or three adverts going and that's not including TV, which you were lucky to catch one. Logic alone should spell out who had the money to blanket market and who didn't. Yet you have people here...This is why its no point bothering with these kids anymore. No doubt they will tell you that "NEC didn't take the market seriously enough." :roll:

Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states. When one company decides to stop and hinder any oppourtunity to create software that western consumers would at least recognised then its no wonder the PSX got the hold that it did. The PSX had three games vital to its success. Toshiden, demolition Derby and Ridge Racer in america and the UK they marketed them like crazy. Why? Because they were cashing in on Sega's model 2 success in the arcades. People saw VF2,Daytona and wanted them but Sega didn't release them in time to really cash in. By the time they did appear it was way to late. Only RR had any real quality than the other two but what they all did was show 3d model 2 style to the punter and how exciting it was.
Sega had sonic and a whole lot of other IP yet SOJ sat on sonic for two years before they decided to make a game for the saturn. Many of the SOA ips that would have been vital to gain an american audience were either shut down or MIA.

If Sega released a compliment of its succesful IP from the genesis days with their new arcade titles and the real good saturn software among other things they would at least lasted longer with the saturn in america than they did. Its also funny the moment i mention Sega's history with FPs in another topic and doom in particular all of a sudden TA has an urge to mention it  when the 32x part of your discussion it wasn't mentioned once AND it was getting slagged off.

And as for the wiki comment from TA. Anytime you have major news reports talking about the games industry as a set peice you're pretty much mainstream. Just because its on wiki doesn't make it not true. That's how you know you're essentially talking to someone who only started playing games after Final fantasy 7 because its only those gamers that actually believe sony's propaganda that they made it mainstream. He being a "long term" gamer should already know that and not need you to tell him.

[Barry the Nomad]

I see no mention of "niche" on the linked wikipedia page:

[Team Andromeda]

Again the Saturn was never marketed as a multimedia device by SOJ, neither was the gamecube either. The MS and Sony systems were.

I do sometimes wonder if you ever owned a Saturn, or ever took much Interest in it . Saturn not meant or never marked as a Multi Media device ?. That would explain the Saturn  mighty and impressive CD front end: Those 2 Left and Right  polygons blobs that reacted in tune to any music being played, the fact that the face buttons on the Saturn, had symbols for play pause, Forward ECT, Hell you could even alter the pitch of the music track, or tack the vocals out of the music , All in the Saturn's front end for ones music CD's.

Unlike SONY PS every SEGA Saturn was able to play Video CD's and display Photo CD's through a Add on . The only way to play Video CD's on the PS, was to buy the limited edition Asian model. One could also buy a Disc Drive, Keyboard, even Surf the web through the Saturn various adds ons  

SEGA Saturn was Multi Media alright.

And I do remember SEGA Europe no lease , advertising the Video CD player in SEGA Saturn Magazine, No less

And as for someone's DC comment, the online functions like the ones for the other sega systems were used to enhance gameplay and not for anything much else.

No that's why my Japan Launch Dreamcast came with a lovely Browser CD , Why SEGA Europe spent millions on DreamAera , Yeo  Internet was there only to enhance games  :roll: . The fact remains the Only current console (be it hand held or Home console)  one can't Surf the Web on is the 360, You Surf the web on the Wii.

And yes the PS2 and PS3 half piped dvd /blueray functions respectivly really made DMC a memorable experience

The BluRay Playback on the PS3 is perfect . I really don't get the silly DMC Comment, its a game, not a Film. But yes the 1st game was quite a memorable experience.

NEC games division making more money than Sega? A company who not only dominated the arcades industry at the time,but had its foot in the door in three markets,europe being the one where it dominated and coming a very distant second in the rest of the world where NEC didn't have the honour of being a distant third let alone anything else?

You've got the cheek to make out people Twist Things after that ?. NEC as a company was always bigger than SEGA,  and had more money inthe Ban . Then and now NEC is a Electronic Giant, just like SONY.
If we want to play your silly little game, How small and how much Money did Sony Computer Entertainment have ?. Not much from what I recall, didn't even have their own floor when developing the SNES CD.

ega outspent and out marketed them at everyturn during the formative years of the genesis in america. Sega had adverts everywhere during the Genesis does, 16 bit revolution campaigns which went on for a solid three years. NEC only had two or three adverts going and that's not including TV, which you were lucky to catch one.

Wait SEGA was meant to be this small corp with no money, and not able to take on any Electronic Giants. Thanks for proving my point .
 And unless you lived in America at the time, I really don't how one can comment on NEC adverts, or lack of

NEC only dominated Japan and that was a breif period

??. PC Engine had a long LifeSpan in Japan and sold over 6 million units. Better life span and double the userbase of the Mega Drive in Japan for sure .

Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states.

There's a great open interview with SEGA America staff in this Months Retro Gamer (with SOA Vice President of Tech 1993/1997 and Senior Producer of SOA 1990/1994) . Yes that right people who worked in Technical Dept on the 32X . I suggest you read it , its quite fascinating . And shows how wrong you really are.

In Their words

"Frankly, the 32X just made us look greedy and dumb to consumers"

People saw VF2,Daytona and wanted them but Sega didn't release them in time to really cash in.

What are you on about ?. VF II was brought out as soon as it was ready, weeks after it 1st shipped in Japan, and Daytona USA was a launch game in the west . How that's for being ready ?

ts also funny the moment i mention Sega's history with FPs in another topic and doom in particular all of a sudden TA has an urge to mention it when the 32x part of your discussion it wasn't mentioned once AND it was getting slagged of

. I've always known about DOOM, Hell (pardon the Pun)  I still have the interview with Tom saying it was the game to get for the 32X, and having a joke at the expense of other versions lack of Music .  Those were the days, Huh Tom ?. I'm not the one choosing to look over how SEGA used FPS to sell its own machines....

Only RR had any real quality than the other two but what they all did was show 3d model 2 style to the punter and how exciting it was.

I think it was more Wipeout and Tekken that doomed the Saturn . Tekken made VF look old in the GFX dept, and Wipeout just hit the trend, and well  made Daytona USA look graphically sh8t in comparison

That's how you know you're essentially talking to someone who only started playing games after Final fantasy 7

I started playing games on my ZX Spectrum 128 ZX+. Then had a Intellivision + Philips G7000 for Christmas , thanks to Old TOMS shop closing down sale .
You never know I may still even have the consoles (sadly not the ZX Spectrum) in my Loft somewhere. I've sadly been gaming since the mid 80's.

Chirst I still have my Jp Launch Saturn and Mega CD receipts from Dream machines II . Don't hit me with the FF7 bullsh8t

[George]

Not going to go into the Saturn and multimedia since TA already said more than I wanted to on that subject. But I remember reading a interview with Peter Moore where they asked him the difference between marketing the Dreamcast in Japan and America. He said in America he wants to focus on games, in Japan they want to focus on multimedia capabilities.

Again, the Playstation did not have more multimedia capabilities than Saturn. Why was it popular? I can see why you say PS2 sold due to DVD (maybe in its first few years out), but PSone?

[Sega Stylista]

Like i said Sega style or SS for short, these gamers who think that are nothing but corporate whores. Which makes me laugh why they saying you are when to my eyes ( i haven't followed every post you made) been waving the flag for traditional gaming in this topic.

Yes, hypocrites can only think along their own terms. . . I am no Sega loyalist or fanboy even though it is convenient for them to frame me that way to continue their phony arguments.

As for your discussion with the abomination. The guy likes to twists things and half the people here are regurtitating the same propaganda he's spilling because they want to impress him because they think he knows everything.

Actually "twist" was the word that came to mind when I read his response to me.  Losing argument so change the playing field lower and more ridiculous, you must know quite well how it goes. . .

The facts is he's not really talking about the reality of the situation at the time. Anyone who was actually playing games at the time knew exactly what the situation was and what happened.

Absolutely, when Saturn launched in NA I was 20 years old. I really don't care for some one a decade a more younger than me to "school me" on their totally misinformed, second hand distortion of reality they lack the objectivity or connection to fact to challenge or critically assess.

Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states. When one company decides to stop and hinder any oppourtunity to create software that western consumers would at least recognised then its no wonder the PSX got the hold that it did.

If Sega released a compliment of its succesful IP from the genesis days with their new arcade titles and the real good saturn software among other things they would at least lasted longer with the saturn in america than they did.

REALITY.

Thanks for the clarity and accuracy in this response of your's, ROJM.

Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period.

Nice Cop out, but how was SEGA able to beat NCL in the west in the 16 bit days .

TA, friend, I have a marketing degree and have worked in corporate marketing departments in real life, so please don't spin your not following what I was saying into a "cop out" on my part.

You've got the right brand and marketing and money to back it up you achieve success. That is all I'm saying.  Sony did just that in the 32bit days.

How did SoA beat NCL in the west, quite clearly a consequence of the NES audience growing up and becoming teens that connected with the "cooler" and edgier" Sega brands.

And then Sony pulled something similar when those players grew up and they connected with their more sophisticated brand and marketing efforts while Sega was stuck with a lot of quirky and niche titles the market wasn't interested in. And then quite stupidly they did the same thing with DC.

Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.

No that why SEGA had over 55% of the western Video game market all to its self

How long did Sega ever lead in america, a couple years max?  And they were beat by DKC and Killer Instict and FX chip, lol.

SF IV is nothing more than SF II made for the new generation . And I wouldn't really class Dead Rising , Lost Planet , DMC III as Main Stream games , would you .

SFIV fits with my point as it has now been casualized. DR, LP have guns, its western appealing enough.

Like I say, Money is one thing, making products people want it quite another.

I'm the one with the marketing degree, you're the one not getting me. Sega was not making the products the newer more mainstream game audiences wanted, as you say, or that interested in.  That has been at the whole point of this discussion all along.

You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC?

Yes both massive Electronic Giants with many interests and divisions that have nothing to do with gaming

Thanks for saving me the work and invalidating your response with that comment, friend. NEC's brand was and is jack shit in the eyes of western mainstream consumers.  Sony and apple are on the top of the heap in terms of cool and panache.  More than a douchy Sega brand was in 1995.

Pong home was one of the very first consoles, hit mainstream success upon coming out. end of. Wiki as a source? Awesome.

George, if I can clarify for you the matter of early gaming's mainstreamness, it is a question of extent and duration, and not whether there was a mainstream presence or not.

We are arguing about the extent to which gaming has been mainstream.  Atari had a brief period of high mainstream awareness of games but it was a fad. Contrast that to Sony that took gaming to mass audiences and wider demographics and in a greatly sustained fashion.  Nintendo and Sega did nothing to expand the market beyond their primary audience (of kids) in their early years, hence the niche status.

Pong was never a household word maybe you like to think it had achieved and not typically known to mainstream folk outside of geeks.

Gaming had an early flirtation with mainstream audiences that was a passing fad.

That video games were still represented in commercials with 8-bit sound effects in commercials as recent as a few years ago should be telling you something right there.

[Team Andromeda]

Absolutely, when Saturn launched in NA I was 20 years old.

Is this the stuff from the school Play Ground ?. When my mum  got me A Master System for Christmas she was already well past her  20's.I  wouldn't say that gave her any more insight to Sega. I could be just as childish and point out that my Saturn was already 6 months old by the time the it launched in America .

All I will say it that I was there from day one, and loved the Saturn from November 1994 to this very day.

I have a marketing degree and have worked in corporate marketing departments in real life

The moment anyone feels the need to say that , is when they start to lose credibility, much like using Wikpedia to back up they case, did they teach you that in Uni ?.

Sega was stuck with a lot of quirky and niche titles the market wasn't interested in

SEGA Mega Drive had some of the most mainstream games one could have . Countless fully licensed and endorsed sport games  , Disney Games and Sonic games , That's just from SEGA.

How long did Sega ever lead in america, a couple years max? And they were beat by DKC and Killer Instict and FX chip, lol

Try up untill 1995 SEGA had the biggest share of the western video gaming market, that's even with the PS being launched in the west . And just to correct you, the FX chip wasn't great of a seller, not that SEGA didn't have is own SEGA Virtual Processor chip .

SFIV fits with my point as it has now been casualized. DR, LP have guns, its western appealing enough

SF IV plays almost exatcly like it did in the 90's most of the moves and combo's are exactly the same . Its just used the Tatio Type X boards to produce stunning visuals , no different from SEGA using its Board to produce VF 5 stunning visuals .

Virtual COP has guns, even used reservoir dogs to influence its look. Did that turn it to a horrible western game ?. Gun Valkyrie has guns is a 3rd person shooter , guess you must hate it, Valkyrie of the Battlefield had guns , guess one must hate that too.

I could make a massive listt of SEGA games that had guns (Goes off to play Deep Fear)

I'm the one with the marketing
 degree, you're the one not getting me

 :roll:

SEGA is making games people want . In the west its Sonic , Football Manager, and in Japan its the likes of Yakuza.

NEC's brand was and is jack shit in the eyes of western mainstream consumers. Sony and apple are on the top of the heap in terms of cool and panache. More than a douchy Sega brand was in 1995.

NEC is one of the most respected companies around . Apple wasn't seen as super cool in the 90's, and everyone had a good laugh at Pippin. How BIG is MS brand (C'Mon you the Expert) yet its Zune was totally out sold by the I-pod its 360 outsold by the Wii, Its X-Box out sold by the PS2.
 C'mon you're old enough to remember how an unknown JVC was able to outsell  and smash SONY BetaMax with its VHS system (please don't tell me back inthe 80's JVC were more respected).

Atari had a brief period of high mainstream awareness of games but it was a fad.

It wasn't a fad. Not only did Atari sell millions of consoles, NCL carried on from when Atari left off , and the industry carried on growing . That's not a fad .

Nintendo and Sega did nothing to expand the market beyond their primary audience (of kids) in their early years, hence the niche status.

SEGA did more than most to grow consoles out of the geek kid status , with the Mega Drive. Getting film, music stars seen wearing SEGA Gear , playing Sega Consoles, Pushing the Megadrive in clubs, beach events . Sponsoring football, F1 ECT, never mind its cutting edge Pirate TV ads. That wasn't just to get kids, it was to get Adults on board, and they were many adults that bought the likes of Fifa , John Madden and Desert Strike

Its just a shame that SEGA didn't build on that, and instead left the door open for SONY