How Dreamcast Traumatised Gaming

[Barry the Nomad]

Between 2000 and 2005 the PS2 had five years to build up a quality library, meanwhile the Dreamcast built up an amazing library within the span of under three years. I consider my Dreamcast library rather large (87 games total) and yet I still have a good twenty AA to AAA titles to own. So while you could argue that the PS2 "turned out to be better" (completely untrue in my opinion), it took a good deal longer to actually reach that point.

[fluffymoochicken]

It may have taken longer, but results are results. The PS2's game library is simply the best, and the DC's would be more of a still-stunning second place.

[Barry the Nomad]

List 100 of the best PS2 games (or find somebody who made a list, or metacritic) and compare them to this list: http://dreamcast100.blogspot.com/

I guarantee the Dreamcast list would top the PS2 in terms of fresh, fun, original and overall better games. I'd even wager that a number of the good PS2 games were ports of Dreamcast games. Sorry, but I can't agree to disagree on the subject, especially on a SEGA forum.

[CrazyT]

I hate to say it, but i'm with fluffymoochicken on this. While I love the DC a lot I have to say ps2 gamelibrary beats DC library with ease.

Ps2 has a lot of good to offer in any sort of genre, especially on rpg's while on the DC, good rpg's were scarse.

Think about games like, shadow of the collosus, kingdom hearts, Yakuza, Jak and Daxter, Kingdom hearts(not my favourite ), Virtua Fighter 4 and lots of more games.

Than again, the DC's support timeline was pretty short and could have shown real promise with the new technology around 2001.

[fluffymoochicken]

List 100 of the best PS2 games (or find somebody who made a list, or metacritic) and compare them to this list: http://dreamcast100.blogspot.com/

First of all, that list's mistake is putting Jojo way back at #100 on the list. What a big time fail.

Secondly... Wacky Races? Sega Swirl? Pen Pen Tricelon? Sonic Shuffle? Cannon Spike?! OUTRIGGER AT #66?!?! You really think that all of these games are AAA titles when compared to what the PS2 has to offer? :lol: Yeah, okay. This is actually more like a "complete list of games that are worth a **** on the Dreamcast" as much as it is a "best of".

A lot of these titles are on the PS2 already (SFIIX, SFIII:TS, SFA3, SPFIIX, GGX, Rez, Puyo Puyo Fever, almost every KOF game ever made, Rayman 2, DOA2, Grandia II, Space Channel 5, CvS2, RE: Code Veronica, Ecco the Dolphin, Crazy Taxi, Garou: MotW, Last Blade 2, MvC2, MDK2, R2R:R2, Le Mans 24 Hours, 18 wheeler, F355 Challenge, Virtua Tennis 2, Hydro Thunder).

A lot of them have sequels on the PS2, many of which are superior to the previous games (any 2K sports game, Virtua Fighter 4/Evolution, Puzzle Bobble series, GGXX onwards, aforementioned KOF games, Spider-Man 2 (movie based), Soul Reaver 2 and so forth, Tennis games).

On top of that, games that I've played on the PS2 and really love include Katamari Damacy, We <3 Katamari, Klonoa 2: Lunatea's Veil, Ape Escape 2, Ape Escape 3, Pac Man World 2, Ratchet & Clank, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal, Ratchet: Deadlocked, Okami, Sphinx & The Cursed Mummy, Tokobot Plus, NHL Hitz 20-02 & 20-03, Super Monkey Ball Deluxe, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, Ninja Assault, King of Fighters XI, Galactic Wrestling, Capcom vs. SNK 2, Contra: Shattered Soldier, ICO, and Frequency. Awesome compilations I own include Taito Legends, Taito Legends 2, Mega Man Anniversary Collection, Mega Man X Collection, Capcom Classics Collection, Activision Anthology, Fatal Fury Battle Archives Vol. 1, and Midway Arcade Treasures 1-3. I'm soon to own Shining Force EXA. <3

Games that I haven't bought on the system yet but I plan on getting include Odin Sphere, Grim Grimoire, Sly Cooper, Sly 2, Sly 3, Jak and Daxter, Jak II, Jak 3, Shadow of the Colossus, Fatal Fury Battle Archives Vol. 2, World Heroes Collection, Metal Slug Anthology, and (lol) The Adventures of Cookies and Cream.

Games that I don't care for but most critics would hold up as being great on the system include Devil May Cry, Devil May Cry 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy X-2, Final Fantasy XII, Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts 2, God of War, God of War II, Grand Theft Auto III, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Bully, Disgea, Disgea 2, Silent Hill 2, Resident Evil 4, Persona 3, Persona 4, Gran Turismo 4, Dragon Quest VIII, Burnout 3, Burnout Revenge, SSX3, Onimusha, Onimusha 2, Onimusha 3, Viewtiful Joe, Twisted Metal Black, Tekken 5, Guitar Hero whatever, Hitman Blood Money, Xenosaga, Fatal Frame, Fatal Frame 2, Fatal Frame 3, The Mark of Kri, and tons of other games too many to mention.

Games that aren't "great" but could at least hold their own against the likes of Blue Stinger and Wacky Races on DC: Pac Man World 3, Pac Man World Rally, Way of the Samurai, DBZ Budokai 3, Astro Boy, Kao the Kangaroo 2, Metal Arms, MLB Slugfest 20-03, and a whole bunch of stuff I don't feel like looking up because I'm short on time. =P

So let's take a count from each category....

"Great" DC games that are also on PS2: ~27
Sequels/Spin-Offs to "great" DC games: Possibly more than 30.
Games I own & love: 23
Awesome Compilations I own: 10
Titles I wanna get: 13
Other games that are widely regarded as great: 37+
Games that could hold their own against mediocre DC games: Plenty, but I at least mentioned 8.

Total we've already reached: 147 (Hydro Thunder is on Midway Treasures 3, so it doesn't count)

Later on, if you want me to keep on naming good PS2 titles, I'm sure I could continue.

[fluffymoochicken]

Ooh, on top of all those, I forgot about the awesome Japanese cult classics Mr. Mosquito and Guitaroo Man! ^___^ Additionally, I forgot the popular mainstream titles Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec and Silent Hill 3. Also, from what I hear from RPG fans, LuPucelle Tactics, Phantom Brave, and Makai Kingdom, Sakura Wars, and the Altier Iris games are all a lot of fun.

That's over 10 more games right there. See, Barry, the PS2 is the kind of system you could probably make a "Top 200" list out of, not just a "Top 100".

[Barry the Nomad]

You've completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point.

[Radrappy]

Comparing the PS2's longterm library with the Dreamcast's is really unfair.  Sega had nothing like the third party support of sony's mammoth much less to say the popularity or the resources.  A slightly more fair comparison would be to put Sony's ps2 first party titles up against Sega's DC era ones.  And even then the aesthetics behind the games were completely different.

[Barry the Nomad]

Thank you radrappy.

Fluff, look at the first three years of PS2 games compared to the Dreamcast and you'll have a much more fair argument to bring to the table (and it would return to the point I was trying to make). Or take radrappy's advice and compare first party games, right there the Dreamcast is a winner.

[ROJM]

From that perspective, Sonic games have sucked since S3&K but the SA were an exception? That's a quite interesting point of view..

Let me clarify a little. I think SA games were part of the decline of the sonic series in general but they were a highlight of the 3D sonic games. Unlike AM2's VF series, which main core group of titles maintained a standard Sonic was marred by Sega's insistance of creating cheap and poor quality cash in titles like Sonic drift to Spinball. While they managed to maintain the quality of the main titles in the 16 bit era the emphasis of quantity over quality soon ended up affecting the main series of sonic titles which we are now experiencing today. Of course a part of that has been Sonic Team's ability or inability to make the game work in 3D and the fact that sonic was the only IP Sega knew for sure would make money when they became a third party.

Lol, if that's what you're driving at, then the name of this thread should have been "How the Dreamcast ruined the lives of a small group of people forever."

@Fluff: And with that statement there you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you've no idea on what you are talking about and that you weren't there at the time.
If the general game populance didn't care about Sega then you wouldn't see Sega having a bad reputation among them. Before that despite their many mistakes in the past the name sega was respected. After 2001 and onwards that dramatically changed. And make no mistake the DC was used as an example of the difference between what people thought sega was about compared to them being whatthey are as a third party. Many people here including some of the mods were around during that time having running battles with people trying to bash people about Sega all the time during 2001-2005. Yet its funny that half these people go gaga when they think sega is going to unleash a former DC title onto their system. These aren't sega fans or former DC owners that do this but gamers who are fans of other systems. I and many here have seen Xbox owners, nintendo and Sony owners get excited when a rumour of Shenmue or Jet set or some other great DC title may get a sequel on their system of choice. That is a fact. So don't BOTHER trying to make out that the gaming public outside the sega base aren't as enthalled with the DC era as the sega fans are.

Secondly. The journalists from proffessional gaming sites like ign and whoever write Sega DC features at any chance they get praising the console. They in my opinion are doing this out of guilt when as journalists and game reviewers they lost all objectivity as you're supposed to have being a gaming journalist and got swept up by the Sony PR machine. Only in the last two years these guys have realised what they have done in ignoring the last great console system ever to have been made and trying to make ammends to it. But of course instead of saying that, in a pathectic attempt to look good to their peers they "act" dissapointed about sega's current output and complain that its not up to par with Sega's DC output. Too bad they didn't make much of a noise about Sega DC games at the time they really needed it.
It seems now more than ever the DC has more supporters than it did when it was "alive".

As for your list of games to prove the PS2 was better. Puh leeze. I could make a list of Nintendo titles compared to Master system titles and make out who had the better libary, simply because the nintendo had more titles. Its the quality that counts and when we are talking about quality, sega's first and second party efforts combined with most of capcom's third party efforts simply blows the PS2 out of the F'ing water. Another fact. Execution of game ideas compared to the DC titles and the PS2 titles and the DC dumps on the PS2 from a great height. Realiability of the systems IE which of the two systems if you brought them back in 1999 and 2000 respectivily would still more likely to work now and the DC still wins. And wait, which of the two systems actually had an online system that actually worked? And when it comes down to it the PS2 titles look dated compared to the DC games. Strange that Soul Caliber still looks better than its "superior" PS2 sequel.

You can bring up the crap all you want buddy but you aren't going to win this battle. And really if you think the PS2 is better than a sega system, i question why the heck you are even posting here.

[CrazyT]

I'll wait until more forum members with a taste in good games can comment on this before I have my say. I will say, however, that bright colors and rainbow bullshit does not make for a good game. Really, waving a Lisa Frank poster in front of your face would probably qualify as a "good game".

Oh, and you've also completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point. Way to go.

I don't really get this post, especially the bolded parts.

All the games fluffymoo stated were all pretty much good games.  No offense, because we're all sega fans around here and we all want SEGA to be the best, but you come off a bit biased tbh. Have you ever owned a ps2?

@RADrappy

We could think of all sorts of ways to make the DC look better, I agree that SEGA's first party games are way better than sony's, but that isn't a fair way to judge the consoles.

I mean it's not like you only buy sony games or post 2001 games if you own a ps2. That wouldn't make sense.

[fluffymoochicken]

You've completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point.

No I didn't, because I clearly wrote before:

"It may have taken longer, but results are results. The PS2's game library is simply the best, and the DC's would be more of a still-stunning second place."

Did you bother reading at all?

@Fluff: And with that statement there you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you've no idea on what you are talking about and that you weren't there at the time.

And with this statement, you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you have no idea what you're talking about and you assume you know everything about somebody that you've never met before.

I owned a Dreamcast in 1999. I was there at the time. Most of the gaming world did get along just fine without the Dreamcast. The people you see around SEGA gaming forums did not make up the majority of the gaming populace at the time. Sorry, but some of the things you believe are either misleading or flat-out wrong.

As for your list of games to prove the PS2 was better. Puh leeze. I could make a list of Nintendo titles compared to Master system titles and make out who had the better libary, simply because the nintendo had more titles.

You're right.

And in terms of the number of quality games, the NES would come out on top over the Master System.

I don't really get this post, especially the bolded parts.

All the games fluffymoo stated were all pretty much good games. No offense, because we're all sega fans around here and we all want SEGA to be the best, but you come off a bit biased tbh. Have you ever owned a ps2?

Thanks, CrazyTails. It's nice to have somebody siding with me around here for once. ^__^

Not everything I like on the PS2 is a "rainbow game". I mean, has he ever seen Contra: Shattered Soldier in action before? Additionally, I did give a number of popular games that I myself don't care for as much, because I know that my own personal tastes are rather peculiar.

I mean, if I made my own favorite Dreamcast games list, stuff like RE: Code Veronica and Grandia II wouldn't rank very high because they're either in genres I don't like at all (horror) or genres that I can enjoy but don't care for as much (RPG).

[MadeManG74]

I'm glad someone has at least challenged the Dreamcast in this thread.

I mean, I loved and still love the system to bits (I still regularly play it with friends and alone), but I wouldn't say it 'spoiled' me as a gamer, or that it 'ruined' anything for me in the slightest.

Right now there are more games out that I'm interested in than I could possibly play, and this year alone has given me two games that I would consider part of my all time favourites (Bayonetta and Mafia 2).

Now the Dreamcast was an amazing console, and I will admit that Sega was possibly at it's finest during this time (I would argue late Saturn to early Xbox probably my favourite period of Sega), but I still bought an Xbox and then fell in love with Splinter Cell, Halo, Project Gotham Racing etc etc.

Dreamcast was brilliant, and probalby still my favourite console, but not to such a degree that everything else looks worse or let me down in any way.

[Barry the Nomad]

I'll wait until more forum members with a taste in good games can comment on this before I have my say. I will say, however, that bright colors and rainbow bullshit does not make for a good game. Really, waving a Lisa Frank poster in front of your face would probably qualify as a "good game".

Oh, and you've also completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point. Way to go.

I don't really get this post, especially the bolded parts.

All the games fluffymoo stated were all pretty much good games.  No offense, because we're all sega fans around here and we all want SEGA to be the best, but you come off a bit biased tbh. Have you ever owned a ps2?

Note I removed that bit after having read it aloud and well before you made your post (perhaps you hadn't refreshed the page since posting?) after I realized that fluffy was simply doing his usual routine of trying to piss a majority of the forum off. So I respectfully deleted it and take back the mean words. I have in fact owned a PS2 and thought it was a piece of shit in many respects: hardware longevity (I have had two fail on me in 9 years, all three of my Dreamcasts are still running strong with no issues), broken add-on promises (harddrive and modem were failures) and general game quality in terms of many of my favorite publishers. Besides VF4, the PS2 didn't offer much in terms of SEGA until much later with Yakuza in 2006.

[Aki-at]

I would say the Dreamcast still has a much better collection than the PS2 and this is a man with close to 70 Playstation 2 games, including niche titles like Wild Arms 3 and GunGrave but mainstream titles like Devil May Cry 1 & 3, Ratchet and Clank and God of War and artsy games like Ico and Okami. Heck I also have all the Onimusha titles and Armoured Core games too.

But this really boils down to people's perference, Shenmue 1 and 2, Jet Set Radio, the Power Stone games, SEGA Rally and Daytona, Confidential Mission and The House of the Dead 2 with Chu Chu Rocket, Sonic Adventure and Skies of Arcadia, it was a great collection of titles that placed the Dreamcast as my second favourite console.