Bayonetta 2 Discussion Mega Thread

[ROJM]

The finality of this statement, and the source of it (PG themselves) creates some pretty ghastly implications as far as the fate of the franchise is concerned.  I wish more people understood this. 

Bayonetta may have sold 1.3 million copies but we don't know how much it costed to develop or what the financial agreement was between PG and Sega.  For whatever reason, Bayonetta's fate was very much up in the air.  What defines a success has a lot to do with what exactly happened during development.  Selling a million copies guarantees nothing these days.  Lord knows we've all heard the Tomb Raider horror story by now about 3 million units sold not being enough to break even due to monstrous development costs.

Coupled with the shoddy ps3 port that Sega themselves put out, and its quite clear that they really don't have much investment or respect for the franchise.  Or any of their franchises, for that matter.     

Sega was the one who brokered the deal with Nintendo. Without Sega this game would not have happened because they had to agree with Nintendo using it in the first place.

Second Bayonetta is big in japan. Big enough for planned movies and spin offs which ultimately never happened. But it was proving its weight in gold as a promotional license. Madonna when she toured Japan the year after the game came out used Bayonetta as part of the tour to promote it. Sega is pleased with the game but Segasammy wasn't going to splash the cash Platinum wanted to make the game. They wanted it by itself and cheaper. And that's why it was canned. The Nintendo deal is the best scenario because it keeps a property that they have in the public eye but they don't take the risks(nor the lionshare of profits but then they have an interesting percentage rate deal)

People really need to start educating themselves about the business end of video games, they really do. Nintendo just didn't sweep in and took over like people are acting. Sega isn't sitting in the sidelines either but are a silent partner who got many benefits out of this deal.  If the WiiU wasn't floundering then Bay2 simply wouldn't have happened because Nintendo wouldn't need the game to help them sell the system. Its a situation where both parties needed each other..but Sega more than likely took advantage of it because they don't need Bay2, they're not selling systems but software which are selling reasonably well..Nintendo however does, they needed a hit game to get people drawn to their systems.
Whether it will work remains to be seen.

[George]

I think this might kill it. Don't get me wrong, I love the franchise but on Wii U? Seriously?

Even with Nintendo marketing Sin and Punishment: Star Successor only did like 30k units? How much did Wonderful 101 do?

Not to mention it was their 'highest budgeted game': http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=646951

Now about the budget. It leads me to believe that Bayonetta couldn't have costed more than 5 million to make. Honestly, nothing screams high budget. If you think Bayonetta had the budget of 100 million, lol wut. Let's put it this way:

Do you think Nintendo would let Platinum Games have a higher budget than 100 million for Wonderful 101? If no, then Bayonetta didn't cost that.

Another question: Do you think Nintendo would give Platinum Games a higher budget than, lets say, Mario 3D World? Even after the super weak sales of Wonderful 101? Think about it...

[ROJM]

I think this might kill it. Don't get me wrong, I love the franchise but on Wii U? Seriously?

Yes seriously...its the same reason why Nintendo got the rights to Devil's Third. At this moment they are desperate to get games that they think will appeal to people who may get their system in order to play games from certain marquee developers. BAYONETTA is an ip that was a hit. So it makes sense for Nintendo to assume that this game might just pull the punters in. Why wouldn't they do it? Its worked before when they had exclusive games. The question is as i mentioned before is will Bay 2 prove the test and become a game that will help shift units? That's something that isn't proven yet.

Now about the budget. It leads me to believe that Bayonetta couldn't have costed more than 5 million to make. Honestly, nothing screams high budget. If you think Bayonetta had the budget of 100 million, lol wut. Let's put it this way:

Yes but Sega for whatever reason wasn't prepared to pay what PG was asking for. Nintendo obviously was.

Do you think Nintendo would let Platinum Games have a higher budget than 100 million for Wonderful 101? If no, then Bayonetta didn't cost that.

Because PG wanted a similar contract to make games for Sega, Bay 2 wasn't just on the table they had several other games that was meant to go sega's way but Sega balked on it. That's why you had that ANARCHY REIGNS game come out in between as a pacifier when negotiations was still in play.

Another question: Do you think Nintendo would give Platinum Games a higher budget than, lets say, Mario 3D World? Even after the super weak sales of Wonderful 101? Think about it...

So what's your point? Sega could make the game when Segasammy has a strict budget policy in place? Do you even know what happened with VANQUISH and the headache that game development cycle gave Sega? Then add to the fact that overall the PG Sega games had mixed results? We can keep comparing what nintendo would do and what sega would do but they are different companies not the same one. Especially under Sega sammy. Like i said they had numerous games in development and most of those titles got canned. Bay 2 got a reprieve unlike the other titles.  And i was really looking forward to some of the Sega west titles that was being made for Vita and Kinect as well...

[Radrappy]

Sega was the one who brokered the deal with Nintendo. Without Sega this game would not have happened because they had to agree with Nintendo using it in the first place. . .

Are you seriously suggesting that Sega, fully intending to make Bayo 2 themselves at some point, decided that it would be much easier to just let Nintendo foot the bill? 

Way to completely ignore PG explicitly saying that Nintendo "white-knighted" the game.  Such statements completely contradict your narrative.   

[ROJM]

Are you seriously suggesting that Sega, fully intending to make Bayo 2 themselves at some point, decided that it would be much easier to just let Nintendo foot the bill? 

Way to completely ignore PG explicitly saying that Nintendo "white-knighted" the game.  Such statements completely contradict your narrative.   

its not my suggestion it was widely reported that the game was CANNED. That means it had started within Sega for it to be cancelled in the first place. You even had a guy from japan that use to come here saying it was cancelled before the news officially broke two months later. And those statements are true that Nintendo saved the game if you have to put it that way. So it hardly contradicts anything.

[nuckles87]

Bayo 2 certainly wouldn't exist without SEGA. I doubt Nintendo just came to PG and said "make this game from the ground up for us". Like Devil's Third, it probably already existed in some form already and Nintendo just picked it up when SEGA dropped it. Bayo 2 still required Nintendo to even exist, but SEGA did see a future for it at one point.

But as I said earlier, Bayo 2 can't kill the franchise because it was already, effectively, dead. The sequel WAS canned. Do we even know if SEGA footed the bill for Bloody Fate? Anime in Japan is typically produced by committee, with numerous investors and interests. I wouldn't be surprised if Bloody Fate started as something to go along with Bayo 2 before SEGA canned it, and then kept going because other vested interests.

[ROJM]

Bayo 2 certainly wouldn't exist without SEGA. I doubt Nintendo just came to PG and said "make this game from the ground up for us". Like Devil's Third, it probably already existed in some form already and Nintendo just picked it up when SEGA dropped it. Bayo 2 still required Nintendo to even exist, but SEGA did see a future for it at one point.

But as I said earlier, Bayo 2 can't kill the franchise because it was already, effectively, dead. The sequel WAS canned. Do we even know if SEGA footed the bill for Bloody Fate? Anime in Japan is typically produced by committee, with numerous investors and interests. I wouldn't be surprised if Bloody Fate started as something to go along with Bayo 2 before SEGA canned it, and then kept going because other vested interests.

As far as i know PG were making games for other companies which of course included Nintendo and that's how it started, Sega wanted some assurances in place for the deal to go ahead. Bloody Fate was technically a license so Sega didn't need to foot the bill for it. It was originally meant to bridge the gap between the two games and keep it in the public eye with other promo material but those didn't happen. I think that's probably why PG was keen to continue with it since Sega has let them have a certain autonomy over their creation even though they don't own the game. But Sega always had that reputation with their second party games anyway. Its a far cry with what happened with VALKYRIA CHRONICLES as Sega pushed that game hard with anime support and sequel titles and promo material even when the game,wasn't a flop but didn't meet the sales to justify such a push. BAYONETTA has met the sales but Sega is willing to let others handle it and take the benefits(if it proves successful)afterwards...

[nuckles87]

How do you know this? Do you have any sources?

[ROJM]

How do you know this? Do you have any sources?

I'm one of the lucky few to know some things. I wouldn't say that is exactly what happened but near to it from what i was told. And these sources aren't on the net or anything that i could mention.Besides i'm not the only one around here that know some of the inner workings of Sega as some of them like TA or Storm come here too.

[George]

How does he know that SEGA didn't foot the bill for an anime? Because thats how anime and other media work, a company asks to make a product, goes to the person that owns the license and determines how much x company gets paid to use their IP.

Do you think SEGA is going to fund the Sony Sonic movie?

[George]

Yes seriously...its the same reason why Nintendo got the rights to Devil's Third. At this moment they are desperate to get games that they think will appeal to people who may get their system in order to play games from certain marquee developers. BAYONETTA is an ip that was a hit. So it makes sense for Nintendo to assume that this game might just pull the punters in. Why wouldn't they do it? Its worked before when they had exclusive games. The question is as i mentioned before is will Bay 2 prove the test and become a game that will help shift units? That's something that isn't proven yet.


Yes but Sega for whatever reason wasn't prepared to pay what PG was asking for. Nintendo obviously was.
Because PG wanted a similar contract to make games for Sega, Bay 2 wasn't just on the table they had several other games that was meant to go sega's way but Sega balked on it. That's why you had that ANARCHY REIGNS game come out in between as a pacifier when negotiations was still in play.
So what's your point? Sega could make the game when Segasammy has a strict budget policy in place? Do you even know what happened with VANQUISH and the headache that game development cycle gave Sega? Then add to the fact that overall the PG Sega games had mixed results? We can keep comparing what nintendo would do and what sega would do but they are different companies not the same one. Especially under Sega sammy. Like i said they had numerous games in development and most of those titles got canned. Bay 2 got a reprieve unlike the other titles.  And i was really looking forward to some of the Sega west titles that was being made for Vita and Kinect as well...

My point is that Nintendo isn't stupid. They didn't get this far without knowing how to budget. SEGA on the other hand will spend so much money on stuff that doesn't pan out. Example: The dub for Yakzua 1 going way over budget. Or Shenmue costing over 80 million dollars, I understand its new tech on a new console. But you also have to see that the budget went into earlier builds on Saturn and such. Very mismanaged.

As for Nintendo, you didn't answer anything. Why would Nintendo put more money in Bayonetta 2, after Wonderful 101 bombed, than something that is a sure hit like Mario?

You can't. It doesn't make sense.

[nuckles87]

How does he know that SEGA didn't foot the bill for an anime? Because thats how anime and other media work, a company asks to make a product, goes to the person that owns the license and determines how much x company gets paid to use their IP.

Do you think SEGA is going to fund the Sony Sonic movie?

Oh, I am well aware of production committees. I mentioned them in my first post. But I know someone pointed to bloody fate as a reason SEGA hadn't abandoned the franchise. I was asking ROJM if he had a verifiable source for the rest of his info.

[Ben]

A few things here. First of all. Tomb Raider WAS profitable, it just didn't sell as highly as Square-Enix wanted it to; they wanted it to carry their entire quarter, essentially, which it wasn't able to do. But it was a success, hence the sequel.

 

If the WiiU wasn't floundering then Bay2 simply wouldn't have happened because Nintendo wouldn't need the game to help them sell the system.

Bayonetta 2 was announced before the Wii U was even released, so at the time it wasn't floundering. Nintendo picked it up as a way to attract hardcore gamers to their system. They'd also by that time developed a strong relationship with Platinum.

Another question: Do you think Nintendo would give Platinum Games a higher budget than, lets say, Mario 3D World? Even after the super weak sales of Wonderful 101? Think about it...

As for Nintendo, you didn't answer anything. Why would Nintendo put more money in Bayonetta 2, after Wonderful 101 bombed, than something that is a sure hit like Mario?

You can't. It doesn't make sense.

Bayonetta 2 was budgeted and far in development long before Wonderful 101 bombed. As for Nintendo not putting money into games that aren't Mario, not true. Games like Xenoblade have a far larger budget than Mario 3D World. Mario games aren't particularly expensive to make, especially now that they've pretty much dropped the free-roaming elements.

But Nintendo does release big-budget games. They release small-budget games and then they have their big games like Zelda, Xenoblade, and (likely) Bayonetta 2. The game does not look cheap to make. Certainly it looks far more expensive than the first one. The fact that they're porting and including the first one as well shows that Nintendo is clearly willing to spend the money.

I just hope they market it effectively.

[George]

You think Xenoblade Chronicles was big budget? Not really: http://www.destructoid.com/why-xenoblade-chronicles-had-to-look-like-shit-226518.phtml thats one of the reasons the graphics and textures are so blurry.

So unless you provide me a 'budget' list, I can't fall into the trap thinking that Bayonetta 2 is higher budget than like 10 million. Considering that Gears of War cost 10 million, it would be hard for any publisher to give Platinum Games more than that for Bayonetta (which doesn't have an online mode, multiple main characters, etc).

So what was Bayonetta's budget tho? We don't have a number. We are all speculating and saying its 100 million Tomb Raider level is fucking retarded. We all know Square-Enix is the kings of mismanaging projects: See every game they make ever.

Maybe we should ask Kamiya on twitter, maybe he won't tell us to eat his shit.

Since day one, Platinum Games have been pretty stubborn on who they worked with. They said the only reason they worked with SEGA is because they promised them to freedom to do what they want and after Bayonetta  came out SEGA did a shitty PS3 port that really pissed them off: http://segabits.com/blog/2012/09/26/platinum-games-says-bayonetta-on-ps3-is-their-biggest-failure/

Not to mention that their other games like: Infinite Space where swept under the rug. They promised that Anarchy Reigns was going to be released world wide and the Japanese version had english dubs, yet SEGA delayed it 8 months in the WEST.

Really starting to think they just refused to work with SEGA after all that shit. As for budget of Bayonetta, if its more than ten million, i'd be shocked.

[Ben]

Whoa whoa whoa, lol.

I'm not saying it was that expensive. I'm just saying that I think you're wrong that Nintendo isn't spending a bunch of money on it. I'm sure they are. I don't know an exact figure, I doubt it's ridiculous, but I'm sure it's higher than these types of games usually get.

Dude I've played Xenoblade and trust me, it was not a cheap game. Hell the sheer amount of voice acting and cutscenes alone pretty much dwarf any in any Nintendo game to date. Xenoblade Chronicles X is looking like a true next gen JRPG. These games are not cheap to develop.

Really starting to think they just refused to work with SEGA after all that shit.

But it's SEGA's IP, dude. Platinum wouldn't have the power to just go "you know what? We refuse to make this for you, we'll develop it with someone else."

The ball was entirely in Sega's court; it was their IP. And they canceled it. I'd imagine that since Platinum was in close contact with Nintendo during Wonderful 101's development, (And when Bayonetta 2 was cancelled) they could have pitched the idea of Bayonetta 2 to Nintendo, and Nintendo then could have contacted Sega about it.